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the stupid extradition treaty

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
i think iwas one of those thinking the 2003 extradition act would be used for white collar crime, and wouldnt be reciprocated by the USA leaving us with an unbalanced extradition system

it's great being a US lapdog

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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Nope. The extradition treaty with the US is yet another example of the so-called 'special relationship' between Britain and the US being little more than the UK being fucked up the arse by its 'greatest ally'.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    Nope. The extradition treaty with the US is yet another example of the so-called 'special relationship' between Britain and the US being little more than the UK being fucked up the arse by its 'greatest ally'.

    Since the UK keeps being fucked up the arse, I can only assume the UK likes it like that.
    The extradition treaty is merely an extension or an added paragraph of the special relationship.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Our politicians (or some of them at least) certainly like it that way. I suspect the majority of the public doesn't, by a long time. Most of them are probably wondering what benefits have the UK ever got from this much trumpeted 'special relationship'.

    Unless it's 'special' as in 'special olympics'.

    Yes, the extradition treaty is just one more example in which the US gets what it wants without as much as a whimper from our corageous leaders.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    are we talking the nat west three?
    these guys will be chucked in jail when they get to the states ...for around two years before they are found guilty or aquited.
    how come ...seeing as the crime they are accused of happened on british soil ...are they being shipped out to a liuving hell in america?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    are we talking the nat west three?
    these guys will be chucked in jail when they get to the states ...for around two years before they are found guilty or aquited.
    how come ...seeing as the crime they are accused of happened on british soil ...are they being shipped out to a liuving hell in america?

    I dunno, maybe the UK wouldn't get away with holding them in jail for the long...
    What makes you think they are going to America? ;)
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It's one of the most bizarre treaties that exists, in my view. The US can take whomever it wants off our shores without presenting any evidence, yet the UK cannot do the same to a US citizen. It cannot be justified in any sense. The US refuses to ratify this on the grounds we may use it to extradite former IRA appeasers. And what's wrong with using it for that purpose anyway? Whom is trying to hide what? Both governments are using their skills in shiftiness and evasiveness to the max...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    are we talking the nat west three?
    these guys will be chucked in jail when they get to the states ...for around two years before they are found guilty or aquited.
    how come ...seeing as the crime they are accused of happened on british soil ...are they being shipped out to a liuving hell in america?
    Also that guy who hacked into the FBI and CIA databases looking for UFO intelligence.

    I think it's apparent to everyone the bloke is not a terrorist or dangerous to anyone. And yet he's being sent to the US where he will face trial for some dramatic-sounding charges of endangering national security and assorted bullshit. So he can expect to spend the next 10-15 years of his life in an American jail being raped daily (for this is the norm in the inhuman hellholes US jails are) instead of the 1-2 years maximum would probably get here (or a suspended sentence if it was down to me).
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    We need to stand up those damn yankies and tell them straight how it is. Id be like;

    "Oi, Bush! NOOOOO! You may have a large nation with lots of appealing and entertaining television shows, as well as a formidable array of attractive celebrities. You may even have a good film industry and first class music stars too. But, if you think you can come on over here with your size seven cowboys boots and start taking our citizens willy nilly, like some latter day child snatcher, some pide piper leading folks off at gun point to lock them away instead of removing vermin with a pipe, you can go and F*ck off!"

    Damn straight! I feel the need to agree with myself!
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    migpilot wrote:
    I dunno, maybe the UK wouldn't get away with holding them in jail for the long...
    What makes you think they are going to America? ;)
    cos america have demanded we send them there to face trial ...:chin:
    and as they will be foriegners they will automaticly be remanded for up to two years whilst the trial goes ahead.
    it is very difficult to put together your deffence whilst in jail ...and impossible to keep your job and look after your family.
    it has already been mentioned in some papers that the evidence against the nat west three is almost non existent.
    but ...cos it is associated with enron ...these guys will have to go get arse raped for a couple of years ...and then be found innocent.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    on the plus side, it is nice to see shit happen to the rich
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Big Gay wrote:
    on the plus side, it is nice to see shit happen to the rich
    it's a criminal offence to be comfortable ...well off?
    something to be ashamed of?
    deserving of shit being thrown?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    Nope. The extradition treaty with the US is yet another example of the so-called 'special relationship' between Britain and the US being little more than the UK being fucked up the arse by its 'greatest ally'.

    Treaties require Senate ratification, the Irish American lobby is against ratifying this treaty claiming Britain will use it to extradite a few Irish Americans who've funded the IRA over the years.

    The US is not really to blame here, Britain is for not suspending the treaty or at least not suspending it in non-terrorist cases.

    That said victims of European injustice are rarely reported. Critcs of America in this case if they had any consistency would also be asking how many Britons are in prison inside the EU who have not yet had a trial (and how long they have been held for). EU officials too can come here to arrest British citizens, and keep them imprisoned for up to four years whether guilty or innocent of any crime. There is no presumption of innocence as we we have in the UK.

    This is an area where Britain needs to stand up to the EU and the US.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don't quite follow why an extradition treaty needs to be reciprocated in order to be valid. In fact, the UK is less of a lap dog if it signs up of its own accord as opposed to signing up just cos America did.

    As for the three bankers, one must assume that the conditions of their extradition are such that they will only be put on trial for crimes over which the US govt has jurisdiction.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    it's a criminal offence to be comfortable ...well off?
    something to be ashamed of?
    deserving of shit being thrown?

    patently
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Treaties require Senate ratification, the Irish American lobby is against ratifying this treaty claiming Britain will use it to extradite a few Irish Americans who've funded the IRA over the years.

    The US is not really to blame here, Britain is for not suspending the treaty or at least not suspending it in non-terrorist cases.
    The US is as much to blame as Britain. Unless of course this Irish American lobby you speak of controls the Senate.

    I haven't seen Dubya or any of his neocon fellow Republicans trying too hard to fight any such lobby and bring a little equality into the special relationship.
    That said victims of European injustice are rarely reported. Critcs of America in this case if they had any consistency would also be asking how many Britons are in prison inside the EU who have not yet had a trial (and how long they have been held for). EU officials too can come here to arrest British citizens, and keep them imprisoned for up to four years whether guilty or innocent of any crime. There is no presumption of innocence as we we have in the UK.

    This is an area where Britain needs to stand up to the EU and the US.
    Couldn't be more irrelevant to the topic in hand if you tried, but any post in any subject is a good opportunity to divert attention and have a dig at your nemesis the evil EU eh?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    The US is as much to blame as Britain. Unless of course this Irish American lobby you speak of controls the Senate.

    The Irish American lobby is particularly influential and with a slim Republican majority and 1/3 of the Senate up for re-election in November neither Republicans or Democrats are going to want to piss them off.
    Aladdin wrote:
    I haven't seen Dubya or any of his neocon fellow Republicans trying too hard to fight any such lobby and bring a little equality into the special relationship.

    Bush favours Senate ratification, so does Condie but the Bush administration carries little clout in Congress. Congressmen and Senators don't vote according to the party line, the whips are much weaker in the States and Bush has little clout in the Senate anyway these days. He's well into his second term and his administration doesn't even have the solid support of some Republicans these days. Look up powers of the president and separation of powers - point being domestically the president of the US is not that powerful, in a comparative context the PM is significantly more powerful. (Royal prerogative, etc).
    Aladdin wrote:
    Couldn't be more irrelevant to the topic in hand if you tried, but any post in any subject is a good opportunity to divert attention and have a dig at your nemesis the evil EU eh?

    I'm pointing out that while you're making a justified criticism of the US on this issue the EU is no different.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    The US is as much to blame as Britain. Unless of course this Irish American lobby you speak of controls the Senate.

    The Irish American lobby is particularly influential and with a slim Republican majority and 1/3 of the Senate up for re-election in November neither Republicans or Democrats are going to want to piss them off.
    Aladdin wrote:
    I haven't seen Dubya or any of his neocon fellow Republicans trying too hard to fight any such lobby and bring a little equality into the special relationship.

    Bush favours Senate ratification, so does Condie but the Bush administration carries little clout in Congress. Congressmen and Senators don't vote according to the party line, the whips are much weaker in the States and Bush has little clout in the Senate anyway these days. He's well into his second term and his administration doesn't even have the solid support of some Republicans these days. Look up powers of the president and separation of powers - point being domestically the president of the US is not that powerful, in a comparative context the PM is significantly more powerful. (Royal prerogative, etc).
    Aladdin wrote:
    Couldn't be more irrelevant to the topic in hand if you tried, but any post in any subject is a good opportunity to divert attention and have a dig at your nemesis the evil EU eh?

    I'm pointing out that while you're making a justified criticism of the US on this issue the EU is no different.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Treaties require Senate ratification, the Irish American lobby is against ratifying this treaty claiming Britain will use it to extradite a few Irish Americans who've funded the IRA over the years.

    The US is not really to blame here, Britain is for not suspending the treaty or at least not suspending it in non-terrorist cases.

    That said victims of European injustice are rarely reported. Critcs of America in this case if they had any consistency would also be asking how many Britons are in prison inside the EU who have not yet had a trial (and how long they have been held for). EU officials too can come here to arrest British citizens, and keep them imprisoned for up to four years whether guilty or innocent of any crime. There is no presumption of innocence as we we have in the UK.

    This is an area where Britain needs to stand up to the EU and the US.

    this is where i agree its a matter of the UK suspending the act unti US either ratify, or we scrap it
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    it's a criminal offence to be comfortable ...well off?
    not at all, but the UK establishment does tend to protect the wealthy white.
    something to be ashamed of?
    perhaps. Living off other peoples debts is, to me, a moral offence.
    deserving of shit being thrown?
    no more so than the inhaitants of quantanamo - at at least the bunch o' bankers will be able to keep in touch, know they'll face a relatively fair trial, and have a time limit
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Big Gay wrote:
    not at all, but the UK establishment does tend to protect the wealthy white.


    perhaps. Living off other peoples debts is, to me, a moral offence.

    no more so than the inhaitants of quantanamo - at at least the bunch o' bankers will be able to keep in touch, know they'll face a relatively fair trial, and have a time limit
    what shit you smoking man?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    what shit you smoking man?
    nothing, I'm just a damned pinko. But which bits do you disagree with?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Big Gay wrote:
    nothing, I'm just a damned pinko. But which bits do you disagree with?
    well the damned pinko bit for starters ...i doubt you have time enough to listen to what else i disagree with.
    i think i disagree with everything now.
    i wonder if disilusioned will swap names with me ...
    thats what i am.
    thats my political slogan and the only feeling of belief i have left.
    to stop believing isn't good but i stopped anyway.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    also from me having a read of certain sites earlier, it would appear the americans would be unable to meet their side of the treaty as it would violate their constitution in protecting their citizens

    so we should scrap it on our side :D
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well MR, Big Gay does seem to have a point about the establishment only wanting to protect the rich.

    Daily Torygraph campaign to Save the Natwest Three from extradition

    And look... Emergency debate in the Commons to discuss the fortunes of the 3 bankers

    So I have to wonder: where is the Torygraph campaign (or any other paper's, for that matter) and the emergency Commons session to save the working class, not-terribly-wealthy hacker who is also being extradited to the US?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Notice the text in the red boxes...

    cnextra12.jpg

    Ordinary workers, the poor and other ungodly types can be safely handed over to the Taliban for beheading for all the Torygraph cares, obviously...

    :rolleyes:
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    So I have to wonder: where is the Torygraph campaign (or any other paper's, for that matter) and the emergency Commons session to save the working class, not-terribly-wealthy hacker who is also being extradited to the US?

    He caused $700,000 worth of damage by hacking into computer systems located in the United States. It's a very different matter and it's right and proper that he faces trial in the US.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    And the bankers were part (however minor it might have been) of the biggest financial scandal in the history of the US and one that cost bankruptcy and misery to tens of thousands of people, and was in the scale of billions of dollars.

    There is as much reason (if not more) to extradite the bankers as the hacker. The hacker's crime was committed in the UK too, you know?

    I personally would not want to see either extradited to the US. But I find the selective concern laughable and nauseating in equal measures.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Actually, i havent heard any proof yet that links these bankers to any crimes. All it is so far is hear say and speculation.

    As for the newspaper thing, business man can mean anyone involved in business rich or poor.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Really? You think so? You think that if a blue collar worker from a factory plant floor was in trouble the Torygraph would have launched a campaign?

    And what about the unemployed, retired or students? Do they deserve a fair trial in the opinion of the Telegraph, or are they not important enough?
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