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Palestine - Furthur Destabalization
Teh_Gerbil
Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/39C6B116-B537-4416-996D-6E6A34CD317C.htm
Well well. Not like we couldn't see this coming. So - no aid is going in, so everyone is skint and they can't afford supplies - tension rises - government can't really do anything, as the extremists don't want to become moderate - everyone loses.
Whats your views? What will become of this mess? As far as I can see, it will end in a bloody conflict.
Well well. Not like we couldn't see this coming. So - no aid is going in, so everyone is skint and they can't afford supplies - tension rises - government can't really do anything, as the extremists don't want to become moderate - everyone loses.
Whats your views? What will become of this mess? As far as I can see, it will end in a bloody conflict.
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In the end Israel has only ever wanted one thing in accordance with the central Zionist principles of the state, that is complete subjugation for the remaining Palestinians. Until such a day, the occupation, daily grossly underreported slaughter and dehumanisation will continue and Palestinians will be forced to fight back.
This is the European legacy born of greed and cycnical conniving will to power bequeathed to the indigenous people of the region by colonialist-era generation now long in their graves (and roasting nicely for eternity one can but hope).
If that happens Israel should be isolated from the rest of the world. Nasty tyrants.
What i really don't understand is the Israelis of all people pursecuting another group of people. Israel was partly established in sympathy for the holocaust and as little as 3 years later the Jews were pursecuting the Palestinians. The hypocritical cunts. The way theyve kept it up they dont deserve their own state.
At the end of the day a nation that has been kept afloat thanks to indescribably large amounts of aid since its very foundation, and that has for its entire existence sustained itself by the use of force and illegal occupation of other people's land does not strike as one that could survive if it acted by the book and were on a level playing field with any other nations.
Ah, another thread devoid of discussion and instead entirely dedicated to bashing Israel.
'the Jews were...'
What a bizarre sentence. When talking of British actions in Iraq do you refer to British soldiers as 'the Christians'?
What one sided bollocks anyway. After the UN Partition creating two states; a Jewish one and an Arab one it was the surrounding Arab states with the Palestinians that waged war upon Israel. They vowed to destroy the Yishuv, re-enact a Middle Eastern version of the Holocaust and if Israel had lost in 1948 they would have done just that. Read some history ffs.
Anyway, point of the matter is there's no one-state solution. I see this ending with the devolution of the Palestinian government, then Israel acting like we did in N. Ireland and setting up a 'secretary' for Palestine or whatever, then the UN imposing economic sanctions against Israel, then in 2015 we'll see the next George W. Bush invading Israel.
Sound slightly familiar? US gives weapons to a coutnry to fight an enemy of the US, then the enemy gets wiped out, then the US uses this as justification for a war... (or weapons of mass destruction)
I have read some history ive been studying Israel and the Middle East for the last year so dont tell me i dont know anything for fucks sake. The Balfour Declaration promised land that wasnt Britains to give to the Zionists. The Zionists also forced Palestinian Arabs out of Israel in the wars of independence. The Palestinians are forced to live in terrible conditions. The other Arab armies were fighting for the Palestinians because they couldnt fight themselves. Israel has a terrible foreign policy and a poor human rights record especially against the Palestinians. Oh yeah and its occupying land it doesnt own... I hate the Israeli government and allt he problems IT has caused.
The Jews were persecuting the Palestinians. The Israeli government is Jewish is it not? Its a Jewish state is it not? And its pursecuting the Arab minority.
So. If Russia came to Britain, and decide it was placing all the Monguls in say, I dunno, London and the surrounding burrors and used force to do so, and didn't really give you an option...
Would you oppose it? And then say, if the Mongols, now armed with brand new military technology from the Motherland for free, decided to pursue and expansive policy and take whatever land they wanted with force... its ok?
Just another example. Land that was never theirs, given for free by force. And then they decide they want more so take it.
TBH though, there are two sides. However, the Israeli's often invalidate theirs by being absolute cunts to their neigbours. Yes, it should exist, i'll give them that out of generosity (The Jews never had a homeland, hence the phrases "A wandering Jew" - WHY do they need one?). No, it shouldn't keep fucknig with it's neigbours and stealing their land. No, it shouldn't build a fuck-off wall across said stolen land. No, it shouldn't keep killing Civilians.
As for the Palestinians - Yes, terrorism should cease. But only once - Israel gives back the stolen land. Israel stops killing civilians. Israel stops refusing to deal with other people unless it gest 100% its own way. It isn't really "dealing".
Hmm.
Bit of a sweeping statement and kinda undermines your claim to have been studying this for a year.
Transfer, forced emigration of Arabs was never part of any predetermined Yishuv/Haganah policy, there is no credible evidence accepted by scholarly historians implying that. (Plan D was formulated in the context of a war and not a wholesale plan to implement forced emigration). The idea of there being no general predetermined universal plan is confirmed by massive discrepancies within the war. Pappe (who is well known as one of the most vocal critics of Israel) contrasts the Haganah conquest of Haifa and Haganah offensive in the Western Galilee and notes that in the former there had been no 'clear intention of provoking an Arab exodus' but in the latter there was extensive Arab flight. Where Arab flight did occur it's again acknowledged by most respected historians to have been because of multiple factors.
(Ilan Pappe The Israel/Palestine Question p. 205)
The beginning of Arab flight began following the British declaration to end their mandate in May 1948. Yishuv-Arab hostilities and increasing violence caused middle and upper class Arabs to voluntarily leave the region. This devastated Palestinian society, with the 75,000 upper and middle class Palestinians gone schools, hospitals and businesses closed. The Palestinians effectively ended up with anarchy, lawlessness and unemployment and very limited leadership. Many left because of rumours of Jewish massacres (Deir Yassin, a unique atrocity in the conflict was manipulated into a tirade of propaganda aimed to encourage 'the Arabs to crush the Jews.' Hazam Nusseibi, a Palestinian journalist at the time told a BBC interview that the deliberate fabrication of multiple rapes at Deir Yassin was 'our biggest mistake...as soon as they [Palestinians] heard that a woman had been raped at Deir Yassin they fled in terror. BBC Israel & the Arabs the 50 Yr Conflict).
Palestinians left because of multiple reasons - the internal Arab factors of lack of leadership, economic problems and a collapse of law and order cumulated with the external Zionist causes of Haganah and IDF attacks; expulsions, fear of Zionist attacks and atrocities.
In Haifa and Jaffa the Arab Higher Committee with force evacuated thousands of Arab residents and in Beisan ordered the transfer of women and children...
Efraim Karsh The Arab-Israeli Conflict: The Palestine War 1948 p. 88
There were Zionist wrongdoings, as there were Arab wrongdoings but it's indisputable to deny that it took place in a conflict initiated by the Palestinians and surrounding Arab states and it's true to say that had the Arabs and Palestinians succeeded they would have destroyed the Yishuv. And the whole affair could have been avoided had the Arabs and Palestinians chose peace.
(Yishuv = Jewish community prior to est of State of Israel)
Were it not for Arab rejection and Arab pressure on the Palestinians to reject the Peel Plan the Palestinians would have a larger state and there'd be a smaller Jewish state. Had the Arabs not supported the Palestinians in initiating war in '47/48 and seeking to enact a Middle Eastern holocaust there would be too broadly equal sized states. The Arabs don't care about the Palestinians anyway, Palestinians are treated like second class citizens in the Arab world with the exception of Jordan. The oil rich Arab states that exiled Arab Jews which Israel absorbed could have absorbed Arab refugees decades ago but decided not to and opted to use them as a pawn against Israel. As for money, well compared to the EU and the US Arab contributions to the Palestinians are meaningless.
Israel's human rights record is infinitely better than almost every Arab state in the region...Israel isn't perfect but Israel is not the sole guilty party here, there's multiple parties that share the blame for the problems. It's unfortunate Israel is singled out and made into a scapegoat.
Educate yourself on the context and circumstances of how Israel came to occupy that land. Israel is going to withdraw from the bulk of the West Bank hopefully but when the other side wants to destroy Israel, blow mothers and children up in supermarkets and murder teenagers in a club...negotiations are gonna be tough.
Funny how you never mention a word about the appalling human rights records of Arab regimes, Chinese occupation of Tibet or recognise the multiple causes of the problems in the Middle East. To wholly blame Israel is unfair as well as a very flawed conclusion.
Anyway while we're on the subject of people being forced out, there's at best spurious and mixed causes to Arab flight from Israel - but it's pretty well established that at the same time 800,000 Jews were exiled from the Arab world. Funny how few mention that. I guess it's rather fortunate Israel existed to absorb them.
You can't see it.. :rolleyes: I'll repeat it as you don't seem to get the point.
'the Jews were...'
When talking of British actions in Iraq do you refer to British soldiers as 'the Christians'? Britain is a Christian country...
Erm actually it's the Palestinians that have never had a homeland, there has never been an independent Palestinian state. (But before 1948 there was once a Jewish state...) And there has been a continued Jewish presence. (Many Jews today of course are recent immigrants, although as are many of the Palestinians...Many Palestinians came from neighbouring Arab countries at a similar time or shortly before Zionists went to the region..) Until recently there wasn't actually ever really any separate Palestinian identity distinguishing Palestinians from Arabs.
Terrorism should cease immediately. Israel cannot cease anti terror operations before then or withdraw from the territories. (An Israeli PM electorally would struggle to garner the support in the Knesset as it is, with the Palestinians fulfilling their obligation to disarm their terrorist groups an Israeli PM would find it easier to withdraw).
Yes. But why exactally did any sortof states (Mainly the Israeli one) NEED establishing? None. Just some reason we felt hte need to give it to them after the holocaust. It was a daft idea that only caused more problems instead of resolving any.
[QUOTE=DisillusionedTerrorism should cease immediately. Israel cannot cease anti terror operations before then or withdraw from the territories. (An Israeli PM electorally would struggle to garner the support in the Knesset as it is, with the Palestinians fulfilling their obligation to disarm their terrorist groups an Israeli PM would find it easier to withdraw).[/QUOTE]
No. Until the occupied land is given back, and the shelling of civilians stops, and the strikes of refugee camps... there is no reason to stop fighting. Nearly EVERY time that the Palestinians have stopped fighting, they have been attacked. Not a fair deal.
Both sides need to stop at once. Properly. And there is no reason for the Palestinians to do so until they get the illegally occupied land back.
The desire for a Jewish state began before the Holocaust...The Peel Partition Plan which would have created a larger Arab state and smaller Jewish state was in 1937. The Balfour Declaration was in 1917. And Zionism as a modern ideology gathered momentum around the time of the Russian pogroms. Israel has not caused a lot of the problems, blame lies between multiple parties and Israel has done a lot of good too. Israel since its establishment has achieved a lot.
The Palestinians have never stopped fighting. During these so called ceasefires you go on about Palestinian terrorist groups have still been launching rockets into Israel and carrying out suicide bomb attacks. (Islamic Jihad mainly). The IDF isn't going to stop anti-terror operations until the terrorist groups disarm...
Israel is continually urged to come to a negotiated settlement and not unilaterally withdraw...It cannot reach a negotiated settlement and withdraw from the territories until it has someone it can negotiate with. (And Hamas as of yet is unwilling..)
He'll either wake up eventually to the truth many anti-Zionists have come to embrace (both Jew and gentile) or grow older and ever more rabid and cynical and hate-filled toward those daring to fight for the lands to which many still hold title deeds to this day (though their towns be bulldozed and written out most public records in Israel).
Time will tell. For now, leave him to his testosterone-addled self delusions.