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the war against terrorism
Former Member
Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
There's been an horrific attack in the city of Haifa. Will we be sending our troops and the might of US planes into Palestine to track down the ringleaders and stop the war against terrorism?
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If this weekends attacks had taken place in the US and the casualties proportional to population then there would have been around 650 dead and 6500 wounded...Have no illusions, this was a massive attack on the Israelis.
But when the Israelis blow up 10 year old kids for the funnies I hope the USA will go and bomb then into submission. Fat chance.
"Men rarely, if ever, manage to dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the
morals of spoilt children." Robert A. Heinlein
Now the Palestinians are no angels, in fact if they all clubbed together I doubt that they'd have enough brain power to realise that bombing won;t get them anywhere. But let's not delude oursleves into thinking that Israel is an innocent party here.
Look at how Israel treats the Palestinians...then look at how the Germans treated the Jews in the first instance - note any similarities? Land confiscated, ghettos, restrcited movement, massive reprisals for any dissent...
Please show me any story from the past 50 years that shows that Israelis have killed children for 'funnies'.
Palestinian kids have been killed by Israelis, Israeli kids have been killed by Palestinians.
Your nazi comparison might be valid if the Jews at the time had been blowing up German civilians by the busload on a regular basis. It would be valid if all the countries of Europe had gone to war with Germany and tried to wipe it off the face of the earth and kill every German within.
Israel isnt innocent in any way. They have some distasteful policies..BUT they have only ever been on the defensive. They are fighting for their very survival.
All evil needs to thrive is for good men to sit back and do nothing
Don't i know it...shush....it's ok they didn't see me
All evil needs to thrive is for good men to sit back and do nothing
So which started first? Israel taking land, or palestinians fighting back? When did the palestine terrorists raise their ugly little heads?
I'd say that the nazi comparison was valid. The only thing missing is extermination camps, and yet Israel still managed to massacre hundreds in Lebanon...
I agree about the reason for Israels paranoia, but that doesn't excuse their actions. But then the Germans didn't have many friends around them in the 30s, they had the same paranoia and the same quest for land...how is this different from the Israeli actions? Had the Jews had the capability in 30s Germany, don;t you think that they would have blown the shit out of a few Nazis?
israel tells Yasser to arrest suspects, then they bomb the police stations and restirct the movements of the police force...sounds just like a sensible solution to me...
As for the funnies news story, I can;t pinpoint one isolated case, but I would point you to many acts carried out by Israeli 'right wing' citizens, especially those settling in 'aquired' territory who will shoot first...
Less than 24 hours after Israel was created it was invaded by the arab armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq.....Funnily enough it was not Israel that started that war but they won it...just.
In 1967 there was a massive buildup of arab armies around the tiny state of Israel. The arabs ordered the UN peacekeepers out of the area and all signs pointed to imminent invasion of Israel. Israel launched a pre-emptive strike..This war was won by Israel and they secured extra lands to serve as a buffer zone..The arabs living in those areas were all asked to move to the surrounding arab countries to avoid the war. They were assured that the abomination that is Israel would be removed from the map and they would be allowed home..Most of them went..The arabs lost the war and the arab countries just said fuck off to the palestinian arabs..These are the refugees so often talked about. They left their homes voluntarily because they thought Israel was about to be destroyed. They shouldnt have been and werent allowed back.
Now tell me.......Dont you find it odd that just 24 hours after Israels creation, the arabs launched a massive attack? There had been zero Israeli oppression to any arab at that point..No Palestinian arabs had been moved anywhere.
Sorry but look at the facts and you will see clearly that originally it was the arab palestinians who started this shit.
Your nazi analogy is still wrong...The nazis may have been paranoid but they werent attacked by their neighbours..The nazis didnt fight off six major attacks by their neighbours...Israel did.
Israel tells Arafat to arrest the terrorists..Arafat does FUCK ALL which leads to the Israelis blowing up the PA police stations...How else can they get the little shit to do anything?
Right wing Israeli citizens? Ah you must mean someone like the fathers of those two Jewish boys beaten to death with stones in a cave just a few hundred yards from their settlement...Do you mean people like that? Or the families of the victims of the almost daily mortar attacks on the Israeli settlements?
[This message has been edited by Balddog (edited 05-12-2001).]
Sorry it's been one of those days
All evil needs to thrive is for good men to sit back and do nothing
I am aware that the reasons for the paranoia are different and what motivates the Israelis is not the same as the motivation for the Nazis. But the actions are the same and 'ethnic cleansing' can NEVER be tolerated or condoned.
Like it of not but the 'occupied territories' are exactly that. I know that the land was captured by Israel during conflict which was started by Arabs, however this land was the home of the Paliestinians.
The Israeli Govt has subsequently and sytematically moved the Palestinians out of these areas, bulldozed and built their own settlments on it.
They push the arabs into ghetto and seal these areas off. They then stop movement between ghettos, this includes the 'police' and the Israeli soldiers stop women in Labour from travelling through checkpoints becuase they are worried that these may be bombers...or at least that is the claim.
I'm not suggesting that Israel doesn'r have the right to be paranoid, nor that the palestinians are right to blow up innocent civilians. However, Israeli is hardly an innocent victim here and it's about time that UN pressure was put on them.
UN resolutions against them are ignored, and the recent bullshit about 'harbouring terrorists' in straight out of the US reaction to the WTC bombing. Israel thinks that it can justify further overreation on this basis. Personally I feel that it is about time that Israel was made to face up to its responsibilities - remember these people are their own citizens...
Diesel
88888888 <IMG alt="image" SRC="eek.gif" border="0">
Ethnic cleansing? LOL I heard that on question time last night by that stupid black woman. Youd have thought that if the Israelis wanted to cleanse the place ethnically then they would remove the Pales from Israeli cities rather than just the barren wasteland. The Israelis are happy to live alongside the Arabs...The arabs dont feel the same way.
Occupied territories eh? Ok well if you want to go into that then both the UK and the USA and just about every country on earth is on 'occupied territories'. I dont think theres a single border on earth that hasnt been shaped by war. The only difference is that Israel took their land out of defence rather than a wish to increase the size of their country.
Are you serious? Thats the 'claim'? Have you watched the news over the past 50 years? These bombers do exist, they do move among the Palestinian people. To deny it is the height of ignorance.
Nobody has ever said that...The thing is that Israel is always the one criticised in this situation. Both sides are as bad as each other in my view but its always the Israelis who take the shit from all sides. Fine, you want the UN in there then it should apply to both sides. If the UN decides to put pressure on Israel then they should damn well put pressure on the Pales.
Interesting that the arabs want the UN back in the area. They take use of the UN when it benefits them...They ordered UN peacekeepers out of the area before the '67 war. They didnt want the UN to see the results of their invasion of Israel. Luckily the Israelis launched a pre-emptive strike.
oh yeah, fucking hilarious. The way that ALL of the arabs are removed from an area, their houses bulldozed and then new housing put up for the jewish settlers...
I was obviously under the false impression that if you moved an entire people from an area, forcibly, then this was ethnic cleansing. Clearly I was mistaken.
</STRONG>
For god's sake get a grip balddog. you are far to intelligent not to see the difference. Do we have troops patrolling? do we oppress the original inhabitants of the area?
Not sure if you noticed, but both the US and the UK held huge swathes of europe after WW2, do we still have it? Surely it would be a good idea to have kept the barrier between us and Germany, afterall we have fought them twice in the 20th century...
The UN resolutions are there against Israel. Iraq was made to comply...either the resolutions mean something or they don't.
As for crticising the Palestianians, I have no problem with that, and you'll see that I'm not impressed with them (if you read some of my posts in this thread alone). Their violent actions only fuel the fire that burns in Israeli bellies. And then Israel overeacts...
You argue that they are right to do so...okay what about the UK? We have faced terrorism for years now at the hands of the IRA (since the early part of the 20th Century) - did we send in helicopter gunships? Planeloads of bombs? Tanks? Did we systematically assassinate anyone we 'supected' of terrorism? and then, when we came across a man with whom we might be able to negotiate a peace what did we do? did we bomb his offices, home, did we tie his hands - or did we sit down and negotiate? okay we still have a long way to go, but at least we aren't fuelling the fires of hatred ...
The ONLY reason that no further action is taken against Israel is the huge jewish vote in the US. The political fallout for any president who tried to stamp on Israel would destroy him, and they know this. Then there's the guilt for the thirties...
If I move a group of black guys out of my back garden is that classed as ethnic cleansing as well? Which 'area' are you talking about when you say ALL the arabs are removed from an area.
Yes you were. They moved people out of the way to make way for housing. We do the same in this country..They werent moved for the sole reason that they were arabs. That would be ethnic cleansing.
Soon after the original occupation you can bet they did. When the Normans invaded and decided to stay you can be sure that they had patrols out for a while. The Israelis have had that land for 32 years, weve had ours for 1000. Our land is pacified, theirs isnt.
Sorry but the only difference is that the Israelis have done this hundreds of years after we did exactly the same. Of course its frowned upon by us because it smacks of imperialism. If the Israelis had done the same thing 300 years ago would anyone have had a problem? Hell no.
Why exactly is that? The Pales arent the innocent lambs people make them out to be. Its unfair to condemn Israel for its crimes while letting Palestine get on with its crimes against Israel...Youre right, either the UN means something or it doesnt. We know from past experiences that the UN is very choosy about the things it supports.
Well actually we did send an assload of soldiers into NI..Im sure youre well aware of this. We even sent tanks/armour into Ireland back at the start.
Since then we have realised things can be solved by peaceful negotiation. The main Irish factions will go along with that. Unfortunately its not the case in Israel. The Israelis have always been willing to negotiate peacefully, the arabs have other ideas. The Israelis are always at the table waiting for Arafat but he wont agree to anything...Negotiation is an art of compromise, we learnt that in Ireland. Arafat will not compromise, the Israelis have bent over backwards to do so. They offered 97% of his demands, he threw it back in their face.
The Pales are being moved because they are in the way of Israeli housing projects not simply because they are Palestinians.
Doesnt matter if moving them is right or wrong but its certainly not ethnic cleansing.=
Who are the housing projects for - arabs or jews?
If the houses were being built for all then I would agree with you, but they arent. The israelis want the land for jews. they move the arabs out and the jews in - THAT is ethnic cleansing.
Your 'blacks in your garden' analogy is way out. There is nothing wrong with moving them from your garden, the difference is that in Israels case, it the the ARABS garden that the house is built on. It is FORCIBLY taken. NO choice.
I agree with you on many of the points you have rasied about arab aggression when Israel was 'formed' and the fact that many want to see Israel removed. But as I said at the start, Israel is no innocent victim here.
They may be illegally forcing people from their land but I take serious issue with it being called ethnic cleansing..Its just not the case and that media buzzword gets thrown around far too much.
As ive said from the beginning, thats not what I am saying.
The people being moved out are arabs, and only arabs. The people being moved in are jews and only jews. The arabs are being moved becuase they are arabs, and becuase the Israelis don't want arabs in what is to be a jewish settlement...
I'd say that the end result was that the ethnic make up of the area had be dramatically changed to suit the Israeli Govt.
I would hardly say that them being arabic is irrevelvant - for it is the sole reason they are moved. The Israelis want arabs out of the way, not people - if they were jewish they would be rehoused in the new settlements...
They would still be moved out of the area in the meantime. Whats happens to the people who are moved is irrelevant to the reason for their being moved.
Sorry but I dont believe this is a racial issue. Its just an economic issue. They want the poor riff raff out of the way for the shiney new houses. The poor people of that area just happen to be Arabs.
Anyway we are just going round in circles..Ethnic cleansing just makes my hairs stand on end, its the epitomy of the stupid PC society we live in today.
Ethnic cleansing has gone on for millenia in one form or another, it won't end just because the big guns say it isn't nice.
[ 10-12-2001: Message edited by: Kentish Man ]
Its just that whenever I hear the words I picture some nameless bureaucrat saying it while making quotation marks with his fingers..Its just a buzz word these days.
The hutsi/tootsi(sp?) thing over in Africa is a clear example of ethnic cleansing. Of course during that little period of fun, the UN decided to do absolutely nothing while hundreds of thousands were butchered with machetes...Good old Kofi.
Edited to correct spelling of bureaucrat..I can NEVER spell that godamn word
[ 10-12-2001: Message edited by: Balddog ]