An American perspective of Europe

BillieTheBot · September 2005

Just wondered what you guys thought of this article, which was sent to me earlier by an American I've been arguing with for a while, together with his own anti European rant.

Article

I'm not the most competent person in the world of political debate and just wondered what you guys thought?

Matt.

Former Member · September 2005

I .

Indrid Cold · September 2005

Too long to read tonight... I'll get to it sometime later.

Former Member · September 2005

Zalbor wrote:

Too long to read tonight... I'll get to it sometime later.

yeah me too ...i'm cream crackered.

Former Member · September 2005

and me

Former Member · September 2005

Read the start of it and started laughing.

Didn't think it was worth my time reading the rest of it.

Former Member · September 2005

The writer generalises a little too much, although when he’s talking about ‘Europe’ he’s referring to the EU the EU is still made up of separate states and isn’t a country you can really make too many blanket statements about. Interesting though, he does make some good points.

Regarding the death penalty I think his point was that it has the support of many Europeans but will never be enacted because of ‘unrepresentative politics’. He didn’t seem to be complaining that we do not have it, rather that something the majority support can’t be put into place. Although I guess that is slightly debatable, while I do think if there were a referendum on it people would be narrowly in favour of it I think it’d be closer than opinion polls often suggest. (I think I’ve seen opinion polls claiming 70% or so in favour of it).

It was by adopting free-market capitalism that Asians and Latin Americans bolted upward—and in particular by copying productive ideas from the world’s largest economy (the U.S.) as fast as they could figure them out.

And whilst it isn’t all rosy in America he makes a good point about France and Germany. Although he conveniently forgets that much of the latter’s troubles are probably connected with reunification rather than socialism’s failures.

The most successful Europeans did likewise: The Irish and British have thrived over the last three decades (overtaking Germany in living standards) mostly by incorporating lessons from the U.S. on deregulation, tax reduction, trust in markets, technological innovation, and economic freedom.

I didn't think it was all one-way, I thought the Americans incorporated stuff from Thatcher on all that?

Hmm still. Perhaps if instead of getting New Labour in '97 we'd returned to the backwardness of Old Labour we'd have very high unemployment like France.

Former Member · September 2005

Disillusioned wrote:

Regarding the death penalty I think his point was that it has the support of many Europeans but will never be enacted because of ‘unrepresentative politics’. He didn’t seem to be complaining that we do not have it, rather that something the majority support can’t be put into place.

.

i'd bet you can't even begin to back that up as it is obviously untrue.

Former Member · September 2005

morrocan roll wrote:

i'd bet you can't even begin to back that up as it is obviously untrue.

Um well why don’t you try and disprove it? Out of interest which part are you claiming is obviously untrue? Although then that would be making a logical argument which would be so unlike somebody who makes so little sense.

MPs block death penalty

That there is effectively a constitutional bar on capital punishment regardless of public opinion would suggest ‘unrepresentative politics’ exists on this matter.

The only figures I found on support for the death penalty here were through google on a site that didn’t reference the stats and did not look particularly reliable. Nonetheless it’s reasonably well established I think that popular opinion isn’t exactly hostile to the idea of capital punishment. Poll 1000 people and ask them whether they’d have supported hanging Ian Huntley and a majority of them would say yes. And I bet you can’t even begin to dispute that as it’s obviously true.

Former Member · September 2005

Disillusioned wrote:

Um well why don’t you try and disprove it? Out of interest which part are you claiming is obviously untrue? Although then that would be making a logical argument which would be so unlike somebody who makes so little sense.

.

Regarding the death penalty I think his point was that it has the support of many Europeans but will never be enacted because of ‘unrepresentative politics’. He didn’t seem to be complaining that we do not have it, rather that something the majority support can’t be put into place.

Former Member · September 2005

morrocan roll wrote:

Regarding the death penalty I think his point was that it has the support of many Europeans but will never be enacted because of ‘unrepresentative politics’. He didn’t seem to be complaining that we do not have it, rather that something the majority support can’t be put into place.

Well I've backed up my point about 'unrepresentative politics' - a future attempt to bring it back has been 'banned' by MPs. (Although I think that ban could be repealed by future MPs should they so desire).

And regarding support of the death penalty other than unreliable web links claiming a majority I support I can only guess. I for one would be immensely surprised if a random survey of support produced a no vote. I wouldn’t be particularly surprised if there was a narrow majority against its use routinely for murders but I think it’s highly implausible that most people would oppose the death penalty for say serial killers such as Harold Shipman and child murderers like Ian Huntley.

Former Member · September 2005

Nearly one third of Germans under 30 say that the U.S. government ordered the 9/11 attacks. In France, a book insisting that Americans carried out the assault themselves to increase defense budgets becomes a huge bestseller.

Didn't read the whole article but the first paragraph grabbed my attention. P'haps Clandestine not a lone conspiracy theorist after all...

Former Member · September 2005

Asked which countries are the biggest threat to world peace, Europeans name the U.S as often as North Korea...

well we did go off and invade two countries, and are currently fueling the ongoing wars in South America. :chin: I mean North Korea isn't exactly a good place, but it isn't actively invading other countries at the moment.

Honestly I couldn't make it through the article it was just too full of bullshit.

Former Member · September 2005

NQA wrote:

Didn't read the whole article but the first paragraph grabbed my attention. P'haps Clandestine not a lone conspiracy theorist after all...

not quite alone on this site either. I have my suspicions on whether a plain actually hit the pentagon...

Former Member · September 2005

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/crime/_story/0,13260,942118,00.html

Admittedly a few years old but it suggests 2/3rds of Brits want a return to the death penalty*. And this being the Guardian its probably not a pro-death penalty paper

* and opinion polls on complex moral matters often loose the ambiguities of people's views.

Former Member · September 2005

Disillusioned wrote:

I wouldn’t be particularly surprised if there was a narrow majority against its use routinely for murders but I think it’s highly implausible that most people would oppose the death penalty for say serial killers such as Harold Shipman and child murderers like Ian Huntley.

Which is exactly why you cant trust the public on any matter to do with the criminal justice system, they're thick and dont understand its not clear cut.

Former Member · September 2005

It's all neocon revisionist bollocks.

Neocons = liars.

Former Member · September 2005

That is one of the worst articles I have ever read.

Former Member · September 2005

bongbudda wrote:

Which is exactly why you cant trust the public on any matter to do with the criminal justice system, they're thick and dont understand its not clear cut.

Perhaps that is true. Although to claim that on the basis of popular support for the death penalty is simply a display of you’re personal bias.

An American perspective of Europe

Comments