Bereaved mother vs. neocon America

BillieTheBot · August 2005

Some of you will have already heard the case of Cindy Sheehan, the woman camped outside Dubya's summer Texas holiday ranch and requesting to speak with him. Her soldier son was another victim of the Iraq war and she wants the chimp to explain why has her son died and what exactly are US soldiers doing in Iraq. Background info.

Needless to say this has enraged the Republican Party machine and the neocon brigades of America. Already the 'fair and balanced' Fox News has broadcasted lies and smears about her while others even call her and her supporters "traitors". :rolleyes:

The good news is that this woman has given a new breath of fresh air to the anti-war movement in the US, and has helped others make the very brave decision of publicly question the chimp's decision to go to war against Iraq- something that sadly merits public hanging and quartering in the Land of the Free these days.

It'll be interesting to see if the chimp has the balls to agree to a meeting with her. It'd also be interested to hear the opinion of Thanatos or indeed any other member of the US forces, past or present. Who is the bigger traitor? The one who wilfully sends compatriots to their deaths under false pretences and for self-interest? Or the one who wants to see them returned home safely?

Former Member · August 2005

The Iraq war was the Right thing to do.

Nyone who disagrees is a supporter of Sadam Hussain.

Former Member · August 2005

Nice sloganeering Mat. Sadly it continues to show how shallow both your character and your rationality truly are.

Teh_Gerbil · August 2005

Only an idiot bothers with such abosultes.

Let's prove you wrong!

"My enemies enemy is my friend" Also the same as "Your either with me or againsts me"

So, the Taliban was against the Russians. So they must be Pro American! Oh wait, after America trains and equips them, they attack America too. Oops.

Oh, and as for the Mother, I wish these people would think. Right or Wrong, you don't do Half a war. If you start it, you better bloody finish it. After GW1's hollow promises, they had better deliver this time.

Former Member · August 2005

The Matadore wrote:

Nyone who disagrees is a supporter of Sadam Hussain.

you really are an idiot aren't you?

yes I also read this article in the Time magazine, fair play to her

Former Member · August 2005

The Matadore wrote:

Nyone who disagrees is a supporter of Sadam Hussain.

boy talk about playground politics, you might as well say "anyone who doesn't agree with me smells like dog doo" it's a more valid arguement. Somtimes I wonder about you. :rolleyes:

Former Member · August 2005

I am always shocked at how far the right wing media will go to try to smear honest people like Cindy Sheehan. I hope she keeps fighting the good fight.

Fuck man, even Nixon went out and talked to the war protesters. It may have been the middle of the night, but he went out to the protesters without his aids, and explained to them his position and why he felt we needed to stay in Vietnam. And when you're even less presidential than Nixon... it's about time to call it quits.

Former Member · August 2005

AllAmericanRageJunky wrote:

Fuck man, even Nixon went out and talked to the war protesters. It may have been the middle of the night, but he went out to the protesters without his aids, and explained to them his position and why he felt we needed to stay in Vietnam. And when you're even less presidential than Nixon... it's about time to call it quits.

Yes, but thats probably because he was drunk and twisted on drugs, he wasnt the most stable president the US has ever had.

I'm torn as to the Iraq situation, I was firmly against it, and as it stands now I do think a large chunk of the population would be better off if we hadnt gone in.

But now we are there we've got to do something to fix it, a total and quick retreat would leave a nasty mess.

Good luck to the woman, if someone in my family had died (which was possible, one went) I'd be demanding decent answers.

Former Member · August 2005

I'd have been really pissed off if I'd been killed in action and my parents decided to use it to attack the Government. He was a volunteer and the end result is that at times soldiers are going to be put in harms way and sometimes pay the ultimate price. I'd have felt my parents were dishonouring my life if they parked outside No 10 and started a protest about getting the boys out of Bosnia

I think its a disgrace that war protesters are capitalising on this women's grief and using her. Fucking disgraceful bastards

Former Member · August 2005

bongbudda wrote:

But now we are there we've got to do something to fix it, a total and quick retreat would leave a nasty mess.

you'll get no arguement from me on that point. I was more or less reffering to his resignation.

Former Member · August 2005

NQA wrote:

I think its a disgrace that war protesters are capitalising on this women's grief and using her. Fucking disgraceful bastards

I guess she just wants to know for what purpose her son died, the big 'why' question.

Former Member · August 2005

NQA wrote:

I'd have been really pissed off if I'd been killed in action and my parents decided to use it to attack the Government. He was a volunteer and the end result is that at times soldiers are going to be put in harms way and sometimes pay the ultimate price. I'd have felt my parents were dishonouring my life if they parked outside No 10 and started a protest about getting the boys out of Bosnia

I think its a disgrace that war protesters are capitalising on this women's grief and using her. Fucking disgraceful bastards

HA! you know what's a disgraceful? It's a fucking administration which built intelligence around a preset policy with the intention of benefiting their rich buddies. I think it's more than right that Sheehan get to ask "what noble cause are we fighting for, that my son died for?". And if Bush weren't such a fucking cowardly puppet he would have the guts to answer.

Former Member · August 2005

we've done a good job in the south

perhaps putting the us and uk troops under un control might be a wiser idea

however the guy was a volunteer to the army so his mum can do sod all - but if he went under pretenses that he was lied to, then well that another matter

Former Member · August 2005

The Matadore wrote:

The Iraq war was the Right thing to do.

Nyone who disagrees is a supporter of Sadam Hussain.

It must be nice up there in your simple little world. Meanwhile everyone else struggles with the complexities of life...

Former Member · August 2005

NQA wrote:

I'd have been really pissed off if I'd been killed in action and my parents decided to use it to attack the Government. He was a volunteer and the end result is that at times soldiers are going to be put in harms way and sometimes pay the ultimate price. I'd have felt my parents were dishonouring my life if they parked outside No 10 and started a protest about getting the boys out of Bosnia

I think its a disgrace that war protesters are capitalising on this women's grief and using her. Fucking disgraceful bastards

Aaah, another person living in a simple world. Is it nice there?

Former Member · August 2005

Blagsta wrote:

Aaah, another person living in a simple world. Is it nice there?

well you have a point cause lot of not so well off americans sign up to the army so they can afford to go to university

Former Member · August 2005

wheresmyplacebo wrote:

well you have a point cause lot of not so well off americans sign up to the army so they can afford to go to university

Oh yes, I'm well aware that a lot of people sign up to the army because they have little chance of getting a good job/trade any other way. This applies to the UK as well as the US. What I do find odd was NQA's willingness to sign away his capacity for independent thought when he signed up for the army.

Former Member · August 2005

Blagsta wrote:

Aaah, another person living in a simple world. Is it nice there?

Not as nice and simple as yours I suspect.

Former Member · August 2005

NQA wrote:

Not as nice and simple as yours I suspect.

Why don't you ask the Queen? She seems to do most of your thinking for you.

Former Member · August 2005

Blagsta wrote:

Oh yes, I'm well aware that a lot of people sign up to the army because they have little chance of getting a good job/trade any other way. This applies to the UK as well as the US. What I do find odd was NQA's willingness to sign away his capacity for independent thought when he signed up for the army.

Go back to the post your referring to and reread.

I joined the army after university for a number of reasons, partially patriotism, partially family history and partially, to be fair, soldiering is fun when you're in your early twenties. As a soldier I then entered into a compact with the Government and by extension, wider society.

This compact is basically that I give up some of my freedoms and become a 'Queen's man' (ie I give my loyalty to the state). Amongst the freedoms I gave up is the one to quit my employ or go against the Government wishes. Because basically if all soldiers decided they would quit their employment when ordered by the Government to do something they did not personally agree with, we might as well do away with elections and just ask the army what it wanted to do.

This does not mean that as a soldier you should always follow the Government orders. Every person should have some line over which they would not step, eg if I had been ordered to start rounding up Moslems and sending them to death camps I'd have refused (OK strictly speaking that's an illegal order anyway, but we won't go into military law). However, this is not a line which should be crossed easily. In effect its similar to civilians taking up weapons against the Govt. Nothing, in my mind that any UK Government has done, (at least since I've been around) has made me believe that I would have come to the situation where the line needs to be crossed.

Now this doesn't mean I don't disgree with many things that the Government does. It does mean that those disagreements are not so fundamental that I believe the military (or those that mutiny) should take the governing of the country into their own hands.

Now where in that is the bit about me giving up the capacity for independent thought?

Former Member · August 2005

look

This compact is basically that I give up some of my freedoms and become a 'Queen's man' (ie I give my loyalty to the state). Amongst the freedoms I gave up is the one to quit my employ or go against the Government wishes.

Former Member · August 2005

It is natural for parents to want to know for what purpose their kid died though isnt it.

Former Member · August 2005

bongbudda wrote:

It is natural for parents to want to know for what purpose their kid died though isnt it.

Exactly, especially when the public reasons for the war were outright lies.

Former Member · August 2005

NQA wrote:

I'd have been really pissed off if I'd been killed in action and my parents decided to use it to attack the Government. He was a volunteer and the end result is that at times soldiers are going to be put in harms way and sometimes pay the ultimate price. I'd have felt my parents were dishonouring my life if they parked outside No 10 and started a protest about getting the boys out of Bosnia

I think its a disgrace that war protesters are capitalising on this women's grief and using her. Fucking disgraceful bastards

Not nearly as disgraceful as the chickenhawk right wing neocon scumbags who are more than happy to see thousands of their own people die pointless and needless deaths for no good reason whatsoever.

Unless, that is, you count self-interest, political games, profits for the CEOs and shareholders of American oil corporations as a good reason.

How many of those soldiers signed up and prepared to put their lives on the line to defend and protect their country and their fellow citizens? Most of them, I'm sure you'd agree. How many of them signed up being prepared to give their lives for the political advancement of a right wing think-tank within a party, or to further the profits and interests of oil corporations and building companies? I'll tell you how many: none.

I was shaking my head in despair watching a TV report on this last night and seeing the fathers of two dead US soldiers opposing Cindy Sheehan's action. One of them even removed a wooden cross representing his son's death from the camp, while other talked about "being prepared to sacrifiy my own family for the safety and security of Americans".

That's the whole point you thick idiots. The war on Iraq had FUCK ALL to do with America's safety, FUCK ALL to do with 9/11, FUCK ALL to do with terrorism, FUCK ALL to do with WMDs, FUCK ALL to do stability and FUCK ALL to do with protecting American citizens home or abroad.

It is bad enough that so many people swallowed the lies of the chimp and his cabinet when they first uttered them, but it is incredible that they still buy the story. They should point their fury at the US government, which is the one that has murdered their sons for nothing more than right wing agendas, geopolitical games and oil.

How thick can people get???

Former Member · August 2005

This does not mean that as a soldier you should always follow the Government orders. Every person should have some line over which they would not step, eg if I had been ordered to start rounding up Moslems and sending them to death camps I'd have refused (OK strictly speaking that's an illegal order anyway, but we won't go into military law). However, this is not a line which should be crossed easily. In effect its similar to civilians taking up weapons against the Govt. Nothing, in my mind that any UK Government has done, (at least since I've been around) has made me believe that I would have come to the situation where the line needs to be crossed.

Read the whole post rather than taking paragraphs out of context.

Former Member · August 2005

NQA wrote:

Read the whole post rather than taking paragraphs out of context.

Yes, I read the whole post. Very contradictory. I'm also taking into account your general attitude in posts on here, which leads me to think that you signed away the capacity to think when you joined the army. Governments should be questioned constantly, to trust blindly that they are acting in our best interests is very foolish and totally ignores any lessons from history.

Teh_Gerbil · August 2005

bongbudda wrote:

It is natural for parents to want to know for what purpose their kid died though isnt it.

They died so America can find out their Intelligence was wrong. Again. And of course, to spread their power into the Middle east and give them a very good base from which to Attack Iran.

That's all I can see it was for, anyway. The Oil reason is complete BS.

Bereaved mother vs. neocon America

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