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why was israel created
Former Member
Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
its a false creation, what meant it had to be created? other than some guilt for the jews of europe????
i always wondered....
like if someone wants to live somewhere they see as their spiritual home, then sure, however, be aware not everyone has your beliefs, and thus you'll have to probably persuade someone to sell their land to you
if it was created as a secular state it would have helped a bit, for example it has the david star on its flag, and a good example of how to do it is ireland, which stil isnt the nicest place in the world, when they created they made a symoblic gesture of making its flag, orange white and green, to show its a land for both the highly sectarians and nonreligious
EDITED TO ADD - do not mention israel today, this is mainly a historical debate and the rights of a religion to their apparant 'homeland' which is in fact quite a few religions 'homeland'
i always wondered....
like if someone wants to live somewhere they see as their spiritual home, then sure, however, be aware not everyone has your beliefs, and thus you'll have to probably persuade someone to sell their land to you
if it was created as a secular state it would have helped a bit, for example it has the david star on its flag, and a good example of how to do it is ireland, which stil isnt the nicest place in the world, when they created they made a symoblic gesture of making its flag, orange white and green, to show its a land for both the highly sectarians and nonreligious
EDITED TO ADD - do not mention israel today, this is mainly a historical debate and the rights of a religion to their apparant 'homeland' which is in fact quite a few religions 'homeland'
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I failed, like much else us Westerners do. Typical. We never think things through properly.
Why do so many people have a problem with that?
The Irish tricolour was first used in 1848 by Irish Nationalists and was inspired by the French tricolour. The green & orange represent the Catholic & Protestant communities, the white stands for peace.
Africa has always been tribally divided, we hardly changed that! We just decided, in our infinite wisdom, that it was silly and lets give them all different land areas. And gave them Christianity. Why must we brainwash them so?
States aren't just created, they change over time too. Germany used to be many seperate states which united. Same with Britain, its a unification.
http://www.royalafricansociety.org/what_we_do/articles/ippr_article
2nd paragraph exactly what i said, it works and has a nice feel to it
and i agree most of afrricas borders etc are highly artificial creations, done to divide and rule, however adding to the problem doesnt help does it
those were partially natural and partially cause of us invading rest of britain, however were not that different and we didnt have other countries tell us so either
because not everyone has the same religious beliefs, and that doesnt actually answer why jews are special enough to be given a homeland, this religoius homeland stuff caused the bloody crusades that lasted for centuries, are certain religious groups more special than anyone else is all i ask
Also the state of Israel doesn't enforce the religion on others anymore than it is done here. In the arabs parts of Jerusalem you'll have shops open on saturdays, and apart from the extremely religious parts then everyone can drive around as they wish on saturdays as well.
To be perfectly honest, I have extreme difficulties understand what your point with the post is. Your writing is seriously hard to comprehend.
Iraq was created 80 years ago, entirely artificially. It included the oil rich parts in the north so that Turkey couldn't get them and at the same time Kuwait was created so that Iraq had no real access to the sea. It seems rather well planned. Apparently it was with the aim of ensuring Iraq could benefit Britain with its oil, but still had to rely on the UK to export it through the ports in Kuwait, so they could never really have independence.
all im wondering what gives the right of one religious group to claim they need a 'homeland'..
"Our armies do not come into your cities and lands as conquerors or enemies but as liberators"
(so said British Major General Sir Stanley Maude upon reaching Baghdad on March 11, 1917)
http://www.allianceforsecurity.org/iraq-occupation
The British promised them a homeland (neglecting to mention that they'd made the same promise to the Arabs). But then again I wouldn't be to hard on the British, given that at the time they were involved in a war which killed a million British and Empire soldiers and were possibly more worried about the state of the Middle East in 1918 than in 2005.
The British got the Mandate to run Palestine from the League of Nations. During the 1930's the Arabs and Jews rioted and killed each other and the British, with all sides claiming atrocity and counter-atrocity (and with all sides probably telling the truth). The rise of Hitler's Germany gave an added emphasis to the amount of Jews entering Palestine. The Arabs were less than pleased with this, wondering why the fact that racism in Europe meant that they got a lot of immigrants who were off a different culture and being wealthier, often bought the best land.
The British had more or less managed to stop all serious insurgency by the late 30's by a mixture of restricting immigration from Jews (pleasing the Arabs), taking out the leadership of both sides and also because the majority of the Jews felt that Hitler's Germany was a greater threat than the UK. During the war the majority of Jews and Arabs supported the British (though some hardline Jewish groups killed several British police officers and senior Govt officials and the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem supported the Nazis).
After the war there was international pressure on the UK to allow unlimited number of Jews into Palestine. The British resisted (in a vain attempt to look after the interests of the Arabs), leading to the embarrassing sight of British soldiers having to guard holocaust survivors in internement camps. Violence increased with both Jews and Arabs attacking each other, and the Jews especially mounting an effective campaign against the British.
Eventually the British said 'bugger this for a game of soldiers' and turned it over to the UN. The UN then proceeded to show that the British were masters of competence at this type of thing.
The UN decided that the mandate would be divided into two parts - a Jewish state and an Arab state. Unfortunately this took no real account of geography - with some parts of the jewish part having large Arab populations and vice versa.
Fighting broke out almost straight away. Jerusalem (allocated to the Jews) was surrounded by Arab land was the scene of Arab riots and ambushes on jewish vehicles trying to bring in food and medical supplies. The British (nominally still in charge and providing security) did little.
The Jews gradually gained the upper hand. However soon after the British finally withdrew the Arab States of Egypt, Syria and Transjordan (later Jordan) invaded with the aim of destroying the Israel. Despite some iinitial successes only the Jordanians could be regarded as anywhere near as effective as the Israeli (the Israeli's were bolstered by having many soldiers who had learnt their trade with the US army in WW2). This doesn't mean that the Israeli's were particually competent - more that the Syrians and Egyptians were extremely incompetent...
The Israeli's took the land they held and the Arabs kept the land they held. Neither side had any wish to set up a Palestinian homeland. The Israeli's gave their Arab minority full voting rights. The Arabs leadership left them to rot in refugee camps.
Hostility between Israel and its neighbours continued...
Does that answer your question?
Watch the film Exodus.
Persecution everywhere they resided. Good enough reason for me.
Anyway, it would have made much more sense to set a Jewish homeland in New York. Am I right to say at the end of WWII there were far more Jews living there than in any other place on earth?
After Kristillinacht he even claimed that German persecution of the Jews was only a response to Jewish persecution of Christians!!!!
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/holocaust/peopleevents/pandeAMEX96.html gives a good overview on him.
There was talk of giving the Jews there own homeland in Uganda - though whether moving the problem to Africa rather than the Middle East would have any gains over the current situation is debateable.
Where weren't they persecuted? I mean, yes there have been rather peaceful eras some places but it doesn't take away the fact that there has always been some hostility against them, even if it was only from a small insignificant part of the population.
Oh, and regarding New York, it's ok - Unofficially it's ours
What a comment to get apollo_69 going about the Jewish conspiracy.
In all seriousness, at the time of WW2 there was a huge gap between European Jews and American Jews. When Auschwitz survivors came to tell their stories post WW2, they were greeted by questions as "how often did you get to change your underwear?".
NQA pretty much covers it from there - but i'd like to add that during the 1930's lots of palistinians actively sold thier land to immigrant jews - it wasn't forciably taken off of them untill much later.
thats just americans though
:rolleyes: j/k lol we all do it one point or another even if we dnt mean it
honestly though what do u mean persucuted? theres bigotted people all over the world ive had to deal with them before etc etc the only real anti semetism ive ever seen is from some football fans call tottenhans yids etc and from a couple of asian boys in my school who found the jokes funny, otherwise most people i kno dont give a toss
I'm guessing you're not Jewish.. and just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't/didn't exist.
To be fair the jokes about Spurs are pretty low on the scale compared to the pogroms in Russia and Poland, denial of the right to vote in most European countries until well in the 19th century, expulsion from England under Edward I. Even if the holocaust had never taken place there's plenty of evidence that Jews were discriminated against.
I am sorry to say this, but I truly feel that discussions with you are made on a very immature level.
1. There's been a lot of changes in mentality across the globe since the creation of Israel.
2. As far as I can gather you're not Jewish, so why would you discuss such issues with other non Jews on a regular basis?
3. I suggest that you actually do some research before coming with claims. Had you taken just a little time out to go through the issues you raise then you would clearly understand how anti-semitism was flourishing throughout the whole world on so many different levels.
my attitude to israel doesnt mean i discriminate againt jewish people, i dispice wih a passion groups who seek to withhold freedom of expression
there is biggotry of all levels in the world, towards woman, children, mentailly ill reiligions political viewpoints etc all of which i hate,
i loathe anti semitism especially actually
sexism is mroe of a issue than racism in the world, racism does come a good 2nd though
i hate all of these things, i just dont see how jewish people are special, theyre just like anyone else to me, and id discuss issues with non jews and jews as much as i like because we live in a relatively free country, like even if im not a woman i can discuss abortion, racism affects EVERYONE like people assuming because im white english male i dont understand, i understand how racism feels because ive been called very disgusting things by some asian people in my area, when i know not all asian people are like that
so dont say i fucking dont understand you ignorant facist fool :mad: :banghead:
and back on track anti semitsm is a problem i must admit but there are lots of problems with out of order prejudices and discrimination that are all equal, we mustnt find find scapegoats or were falling into the same trap
how does this realte to my question anyway?
And calling me a fascist fool surely won't get you anywhere.
well saying i dont understand cause im not jewish does not help one bit whatsoever, and i cant be bothered to argue