If you need urgent support, call 999 or go to your nearest A&E. To contact our Crisis Messenger (open 24/7) text THEMIX to 85258.
Options
to all those who say id cards are alrite
Former Member
Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
i just read the best opinion ever ona random forum
I consider it a breach of my current civil rights that I have to possess an ID card just to exist.
You wanna drive? You take on extra responsibility - fair enough. You wanna travel to another country? They wanna know who they're letting in - fair enough.
You wanna walk along the road you paid for in the country you paid for, in the country you were born in? I don't have to prove myself to anyone. Least of all some pseudo-Stalinist no-eyed **** politician with an obsession about keeping his eye on people.
I consider it a breach of my current civil rights that I have to possess an ID card just to exist.
You wanna drive? You take on extra responsibility - fair enough. You wanna travel to another country? They wanna know who they're letting in - fair enough.
You wanna walk along the road you paid for in the country you paid for, in the country you were born in? I don't have to prove myself to anyone. Least of all some pseudo-Stalinist no-eyed **** politician with an obsession about keeping his eye on people.
0
Comments
erm it makes a good point explaining why i and lots of other people dont like them
why should i have to carry ID, if you want one, get one for yourself
BUT WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO HAVE ONE?
I know, what is the deal, don't know much about them yet, do u have to have them at all times? I'm a girl, I may not have pockets for something like that. I don't even see the point, need to read up really, but i am ignoring the issue as i don't think they will bring them in, will they?:(
lol i believe they expect you to carry them
and if you dont inform te government of change of address youll be subject to a fine of £1000
the things that worrying is that instead of saying who has acces to what info in the bill, the bill says that the government will decide afterwards which is thebiggest pis take ever
Things like this are never good, i find it hard enough to keep my keys, let alone a card, i will blantantly lose it all the time, and what if you don't have it, will you be arrested? Is this Nazi Germany or something, and what exactly is the point again?
It's all bollocks.
Sure the alternatives arent all that spectacular, but unless politicians find themselves stripped of the reigns of power, they will simply presume they have a mandate to do as they please with impunity.
Sadly, whether by hook or by crook we Americans failed in our bid to stem the increasing neocon consolidation of power and establishment of a corrupt police state for yet another 4 years. If you do not wish to go the same route, put the Lib Dems in charge, at least for one term. If after that they have proven incapable, vote Labour back in. By then at least the Party would have gotten the message and had the opportunity and justification to replace the poodle with someone less onerous (hopefully).
That's the only way youll manage to turn things around.
erm with howard in control of the tories hed bring them in himself if he got into power
best bet would be a slightly hung parliament so labour has to work with lib dems and being labour back down to earth in stead of thinking they can control everyones lives
NO2ID NEWSLETTER - Supporter's Newsletter No.11 - 16th December 2004
+++ Identity Cards Bill 2nd Reading Monday 20th December - Still Time To Lobby MPs
The second reading of the Identity Cards Bill is on Monday (20th December). We urgently call on all supporters to contact their MPs, Councillors, AMs and MSPs to make them aware of your concerns and to point out that ID cards are not a popular measure, despite what a number of them believe. If you get a response then please pass on details of their position to our Parliamentary Liaison, Dave Walker (dave@no2id.net).
List of MSPs - http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/msp/index.htm
List of AMs - http://www.wales.gov.uk/who/constit_e.htm
Fax Westminster MPs - http://www.faxyourmp.com/
+++ Stop ID-cards and the database state
This is the latest email newsletter to keep you informed about the campaign against the Home Office's plans to fingerprint and track the entire population of Britain for its National Identity Register. As soon as practicable the NO2ID Newsletter will also be produced in printed form to let us reach people without email. Meanwhile, if you want to forward this email to friends or print and distribute hard copies, then we have no objections.
You've been sent this (if you are a first hand recipient) because we believe you registered as a supporter of the campaign. If not, or if you just don't want the newsletter, let us know and please accept our apologies. We don't want to spam anyone.
(Equally, if you were a supporter in the past, but have now decided that you do want yourself and your family to be tagged like cattle at huge and unnecessary expense, please do tell us.)
++ 2nd Reading of ID Card Bill Imminent
+ Tories Stand Alone In Support Of Government
On Monday the Conservative Party announced that it will support the government's Identity Cards Bill which has its second reading on Monday (20th December). The announcement followed what was described as a "tough meeting" of the shadow cabinet. The Tories are now the only significant political party that supports the Government on this issue. The Liberal Democrats, the SNP, Plaid Cymru, the Green Party, Respect and the UK Independence Party are all opposed to ID cards.
The decision was forced through by the party leader Michael Howard, who personally is in favour. (He tried to introduce ID cards when he was Home Secretary.) However, many Conservative MPs are bitterly opposed to ID cards on the grounds that they would be a huge bureaucratic enlargement of the State, bog the police down in administration, be an enormous expense and constitute an attack on the freedoms of law-abiding citizens.
There is talk of a Tory split over this issue, which could shatter the party and allow the Liberal Democrats to move ahead of them in the polls. If this authoritarian bill gets through parliament it may well be because Mr Howard decided to let it. The Conservatives will share the blame if ID Cards are introduced and they are (as we predict) a disaster.
+ Election Strategy
It seems that Howard did not want the Conservatives to appear soft on crime when compared to the Labour party at the upcoming general election. We beg to differ.
What the Conservatives should have done is to point out that what the government is proposing is not a simple plastic card as most people believe, but a centralised database of information on every citizen, which via each individual's National Identity Register Number will allow all government and even some private sector databases to be linked together (including medical records). That every use of the card will be recorded in a database, thus creating a dossier on every citizen in the UK. That the system relies on un-tested un-proven technology. That the government's claim that we must add biometrics to our passports anyway so we may as well have an ID card is a lie. (International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) standards only require that the passport photo be digitised). That government IT projects are constantly mired in delays, overspend, function creep and failure. That for the same cost it would be possible to pay for 10,000 new police.
These facts will reach the UK population eventually. The Conservatives could have been a leading messenger that this is a bad scheme.
+ Police Position
Conservative Central Office now issues a standard letter to all enquirers suggesting that the police think ID cards will help in the fight against crime and terrorism, and Mr Howard’s views are supported by the police. This is weak spin.
The Metropolitan Police in their written evidence to the Home Affairs Committee said, "We have seen no evidence either here, or in previous debates, that suggests the introduction of an identity card will in itself lead to a reduction in crime or an increase in detection rates."
Paul Whitehouse, former Chief Constable of Sussex Police, speaking in May, suggested that ID Cards could actually cause terrorism: "f you keep driving the state into the all-powerful position, when you look around the world, that's what happens next." A view echoed this
week by Guy Mansfield QC, new chairman of the Bar Council who warned that as a result of measures such as ID Cards, "There is a real risk that the disaffected and people on the margins of society
will be driven into the hands of extremists".
The anonymous author of the Policeman's Blog stated in September that, "the only positive thing to come out of ID cards will be a few extra jobs in offices in my police station." http://coppersblog.blogspot.com/
+ Both Cabinets Split - Whips Out
Both the Labour and Conservative front benches are now split over ID cards. Conservative MPs will be expected to vote for the Identity Cards Bill at the bill's second reading on Monday. In an attempt to head off a split several Shadow Cabinet members have been excused from the vote and the party will use a two-line whip. It is disgraceful that the two leading political parties are intending to use the party whip to force through a bill, that unannounced so fundamentally changes the relationship between the state and the individual.
It is the job of politicians to properly scrutinise proposed legislation, not pander to opinion polls for the sake of short term electoral gain. The vast majority of the UK public has not read,
nor will ever read the Identity Cards Bill or the associated impact reports, let alone the huge body of research into ID cards. The true horrors of such a scheme would only become apparent to them once the system was in place.
We need to get the message out and increase our numbers. Please spread the word and encourage people to join NO2ID.
++ What Just Happened?
+ David Blunkett Resigns - Replacement Charles Clarke Backs ID Cards
On Wednesday Home Secretary David Blunkett resigned from the government. He was replaced by Charles Clarke. Minister for Education. No sooner was Clarke appointed than he publicly expressed his support for the government's ID card scheme, though he did indicate that he may be willing to debate details of their implementation. We shall have to wait and see whether he drives the Home Office agenda with the same zeal as Blunkett.
It has been generally believed before now that Clarke personally is not a supporter of ID cards. On Monday it is possible that both the Home Secretary and shadow Home Secretary will speak in parliament in support of a policy that they privately oppose.
+ Reform/ICM ID Cards Poll
Last week Reform, the centre right think tank, released the results of an ICM poll they had commissioned on ID cards. 1022 people were interviewed by telephone. The headline figure of 81% support may have helped persuade the Conservative party to support the government.
However, deeper analysis of the results shows that public opinion is very vague. Only 18% would be willing to pay £30 or more for the card, though strangely 68% still think they're a good idea when told that the current predicted cost is £35 or £85 if combined with a passport. 46% thought the £5.5 billion that would be
better used to fight crime in other ways.
Andrew Haldenby, Director of Policy at Reform, commented on the poll on Radio 4's Today programme. He said, "All of the issues that the government say we need ID cards for ... can all actually be solved by measures other than ID Cards which in many cases are less costly and less bureaucratic."
See http://www.icmresearch.co.uk/reviews/2004/Reform%20-%20ID%20cards/reform-id-cards-dec-04.asp
+ E-Petition Still Open
We have decided to keep the petition open to help us reach more supporters.
The "official" petition is now listed on the cabinet office website, together with an indication that a response will be posted "in due course".
http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/page297.asp
Please continue to encourage people to sign the petition at
http://www.no2id-petition.net/
(continued in next post)
Many of the horrors of the governments ID card proposals can be found in the Regulatory Impact Assessment that was released alongside the Identity Cards Bill. One such horror is described on page 14, where it states: "It would be possible for the police to run checks of this information against the National Identity Register to identify possible suspects in unsolved cases. This would have broader applications than terrorism."
In other words if your fingerprints, or some fingerprints sufficiently like yours for a partial match, are at a crime scene then you will be a suspect. Police and security experts have expressed concerns about the risk of false matches.
See http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/docs3/ria_251104.pdf
+ EU Biometric Passports - UK Excluded From Regulation
There is yet more evidence that the government is not being honest when it comes to their insistence that we have to add multiple biometric identifiers to our passports. The EU General Affairs Council adopted a regulation on mandatory facial images and fingerprints in EU passports at its meeting in Brussels on 13 December 2004.
The UK government is excluded from taking part in the adoption of the
Regulation because it is not a signatory to the Schengen Agreements on border controls.
See http://www.statewatch.org/news/index.html
+ Multiple Biometrics Can Reduce Accuracy
The government likes to pretend that biometrics are magic technology that will make its ID proposals workable where all others have failed. When challenged on the accuracy of checking iris or facial scans and fingerprints, it reassures us that their system uses multiple biometrics--implicitly assuming this will increase accuracy.
Not so, says the inventor of iris recognition algorithms, John Daugman OBE of Cambridge University. He has proved that when two
biometric tests are combined "one of the resulting error rates (False Accept or False Reject rate) becomes better than that of the stronger of the two tests, while the other error rate becomes worse even than that of the weaker of the tests."
See http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/jgd1000/combine/combine.html
+ The 1952 Committee
Pro-Tory bloggers who have decided not to vote Tory because of their support for ID cards have joined together to form The 1952 Committee, so called because this was the year in which the Churchill government ended post-war ID cards.
See http://www.theenglandproject.net/mt/archives/000821.html
++ What's Next?
+ Local Groups
+ 25th January - NO2ID Public Meeting Cambridge
Tuesday 25th January 7:30pm at Fisher Hall, Guildhall Place, Cambridge.
Speakers are to include:
Peter Lilley, MP for Hitchen
Ross Anderson, Professor of Security Engineering, University of Cambridge
David Howarth, prospective Liberal Democrat candidate for Cambridge
There are plans to get things going in (amongst other places): Bristol, Cardiff, Carlisle, Newcastle, Oxford, Peterborough, Reading, Rhyll ,Sheffield ,Sidcup, Staffordshire, Woking, Worthing,
York.
If you live in or near any of those places, help would be much appreciated. If you don't, why not make that list grow a little bit? We have no time to lose.
If you'd like to discuss organising up a group, holding a meeting or otherwise getting the campaign moving where you are, you can
volunteer through: volunteer@no2id.net
In London local group volunteers should contact Andrew Weston (london@no2id.net) and in Scotland, Trevor Mendham (scotland@no2id.net).
Contact Guy Taylor (guyt@no2id.net) for detailed campaigning advice.
+ Request for Volunteers
We need volunteers to work in all areas of the campaign, and all areas of the country, as things are moving fast, and we are growing fast. Press experience, print/production background, DTP
facilities, research and writing skills are all at a premium. Security consultants who can explain the weaknesses of the Government proposals would be warmly welcomed. But we also need willing
general helpers and people to organise local groups: Everyone can assist in some way if they want to. See below for more things you can do. To volunteer, contact volunteer@no2id.net
+ NO2ID Needs Funds for lobbying, too
The battle has only just begun and we need funds to help build on the
success we've had so far.
We will shortly need to mail briefing documents to the House of Lords. It could cost 500 pounds in postage alone.
If you have not yet joined NO2ID please do. If you have already, please introduce a friend.
Membership starts at 15 pounds, and even a small standing order makes a big difference in the long run. How much do you value your freedom and privacy?
You can get a membership form at
www.no2id.net/content/join.html
You can also make a donation by PayPal or bank transfer, see
www.no2id.net/content/donate.html.
+ Coming soon - Fundraising Event in London
Find out what an extraordinarily diverse range of ideas NO2ID people have. And raise funds for the battle ahead. Details will depend on how much interest there is. Contact our events manager, Cassandra Rae (cassandra@no2id.net) if you would like to know more.
++ "ID" In the News
Clarke takes charge of Blunkett's Fear Agenda The Register
Analysis of Blunkett's resignation
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/12/16/blunkett_resigns/
Dead Card Daily Mirror
The Top Tories set to rebel over ID cards.
http://tinyurl.co.uk/sxm8
Conservatives give in-principle backing to ID Cards Bill Public Technology
http://www.publictechnology.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=2232
Kennedy warns of identity crisis E-Politix
Charles Kennedy concerned about likelihood of IT failure
http://www.epolitix.com/EN/News/200412/0342e8d1-fa2f-467e-9e26-29fd50391120.htm
Entire population to be suspects in ID card fingerprint scheme Computer Weekly
“The alarm is sounded over plans to widen police access to information”
http://tinyurl.co.uk/esoo
Think tank survey claims 81% support UK ID cards The Register
John Lettice deconstructs Reform's ID card poll results
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/12/08/reform_id_survey/
Earn Loyalty Points on Your Blunkett Card
A national identity card won't be able to offer the bold solution promised by the government,
perhaps it should be named a Blunkett card.
http://www.zentelligence.equology.com/html/newsarticle.asp?nid=4914
ID card database to support a public service delivery agenda
Masons Pinsent solicitors analyse the Bill
http://www.out-law.com/php/page.php?page_id=idcarddatabaseto1102340874&area=news
All is revealed on identity cards The Guardian
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/homeaffairs/story/0,11026,1367338,00.html
The Digital Person Bruce Schneier
Bruce Schneier explores the proliferation of databases.
http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2004/12/the_digital_per.html
Lord Butler Attacks the Government - Scotsman
Benefits would not justify the cost
http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=3862949
(Please send me any items of interest you encounter - Editor)
Like any campaign we need funds and people. Any help or expertise of any kind you can spare will be most welcome. Most important is to get other people involved and to understand the issues. ID CARDS sound innocent: what the government wants is ID CONTROL. When people know that they (and their children) may be fingerprinted like criminals and will be made to register every change of address with the authorities, their attitude changes. So:-
1. Tell your friends about the campaign and that you are supporting it. Most people are scarcely aware of the government's ID database project, and few understand the dangers. Feel free to redistribute this newsletter to acquaintances. (But please do introduce it personally and don't spam.) Your personal witness will help others understand that this is important.
2. Sign the Petition and get your friends and (adult) family to do so.
http://www.no2id-petition.net/
3. Let us know if you have time or special expertise that you can give to the organisation or facilities you can lend us. The campaign is getting bigger, but needs to grow some more. Fast. We urgently need any assistance you can offer. We can use any amount of professional creative and marketing expertise as we begin to lift public awareness of the issues. We are also looking for cheap office space in Central London/Westminster. Volunteer at: volunteer@no2id.net
4. Get together with others in your area to form a local group. A national campaign needs a national network. Experienced campaigner Guy Taylor (guy@no2id.net) is available to help local groups build our nationwide presence. Guy can tell you how to hold a public meeting, set out your stall locally (literally as well as metaphorically), and how to get other people involved. If you have experience of local campaigns then by all means just start -- we will offer what help we can. Details of forthcoming meetings, when we have them, are posted on the website.
5. Raise the issue for discussion in any organisations you belong to.
Everyone is affected in some way. Encourage any club, union or other
group you are in that opposes ID control to become a supporter or affiliate itself.
6. Write to the local and national press, to express your concerns whenever there is relevant news. Phone-in to appropriate radio and TV programs. There is plenty of information on (and linked from) the website to help you do this.
7. Write to your MP and MEP expressing your disquiet and ask for their personal opinion. (Big-party MPs in particular sometimes avoid
controversial issues, or may pass on your letter to the Home Office rather than answering for themselves.) Let us know what they say.
FaxYourMP.com is a free and confidential way to do it.
8. Buy a T-shirt, and wear it. This publicises the message--people will ask you what it means--and raises funds. Details on the NO2ID website.
Or buy online at:
http://www.ntkmart.co.uk/ntkmart.cgi#No2ID
or
http://www.cashncarrion.co.uk/cnb/shop/cashncarrion?listPos=&op=catalogue-products-null&prodCategory
ID=28
9. Join. Membership starts at GBP15 a year (higher contributions
encouraged--a modest standing order means a lot to us). It entitles you to a say in the running of NO2ID. There is a membership form on the website at
www.no2id.net/content/join.html
10. Give generously. A few weeks back we had no money. Now we have a little money, but we will always need more. The Home Office is planning to spend billions. But we will spend your money better.
Funds can be transferred to our HSBC Treasurer Account in the name of
NO2ID
A/c no: 91339427
Sort Code 40-28-15
You can send a cheque, payable to "NO2ID" to: NO2ID, Box 412, 78 Marylebone
High Street, LONDON W1U 5AP.
Special donation or sponsorship enquiries should be made to Guy Herbert (guyh@no2id.net). Help in kind is equally welcome.
11. Link to us. Help us gather support on through the web by displaying a button or banner (available on the website) on your own home site or blog and linking to us.
++ NO2ID Who's Who and Resources
First port of call should be the website:
http://www.no2id.net/
+ If you have specific assistance or information to offer, you can
contact one of the following NO2ID people:
Chair - Simon Davies (simon@no2id.net)
National Coordinator - Phil Booth (phil@no2id.net)
Administration
General Secretary - Guy Herbert (guyh@no2id.net)
Newsletter Editor - Charles Farrier (newsletter@no2id.net)
Technical Manager - Owen Blacker (owen@no2id.net)
Communications
Head of Campaigns - Andy Robson (andy@no2id.net)
Public Affairs and Parliamentary Liaison - Dave Walker (dave@no2id.net)
Events Manager - Cassandra Rae (cassandra@no2id.net)
Development
National Secretary - Adam McGreggor (adam@no2id.net)
Local Group Coordinator - Guy Taylor (guy@no2id.net)
Regional Coordinators
London - Simon Weston (london@no2id.net)
Scotland - Trevor Mendham (scotland@no2id.net)
+ Please, please remember that everybody on this list will be getting a huge amount of email, so you should only direct enquiries to the relevant person. We are grateful for all offers of help, but can't guarantee to have time to give detailed answers to individual general queries on the ID scheme. There is a lot of information on the website and there will soon be much, much more.
Publication details: (c) NO2ID 2004 - This document may be freely
redistributed in one-to-one communications or physical copies as long as it is reproduced in its entirety including this notice. It may not be mass-mailed without the prior permission of NO2ID.
NO2ID, Box No.412, 78 Marylebone High Street, LONDON W1U 5AP
*********** Support the campaign, buy (wear!) a T-shirt ***********
NO2ID T-shirts are now available in a range of sizes for men and women.
Order yours now from http://www.no2id.net/content/tshirt_order.html or
buy them online at NTK url]http://www.ntkmart.co.uk/ntkmart.cgi#No2ID[/url or The Register [http://www.cashncarrion.co.uk/cnb/shop/cashncarrion?listPos=&opÊtalogue-products-null&prodCategoryID(].
All profits go towards funding NO2ID campaign activities.
--
You've received this mail by opting-in to the "ID cards news" list, run
by The no2id Coalition,
http://www.no2id.net/
The list information page is
http://www.no2id.net/mailman/listinfo/no2id-supporters , from which you can
change your subscription options. Any problems and you can mail the
listmasters, on listmaster@no2id.net
Most Lib Dem MPs appear to be against it as well... wouldn't it be funny if it got voted down...
Oh, plus, if anyone in the S. Bucks area is interested, I'm organising a public meeting in the new year, with some interesting speakers - drop me a PM for details.
you ask why you should have to carry them?
i ask you can you give me a reason why you shouldnt?
well we didnt carry them through the priodof major troubles of IRA bombings, and through the cold war too since they knew theyre pointless
why should our existing situation be different
and we apparantly live in relatively free country where i am entitled to choice of a private life
fair enough if you make something its yours to keep, but most of the people in the last few hundered/thousand etc years only know of free speech because they are told about it
if a country like china doesnt have free speech against the government say, because they all in the country have the same rights, its the way the government goes and does things. the only difference between us and china is that at some point the government allowed us to have free speech, so why should we argue about something that was given to and allowed by the government
and as for the times with IRA bombings and the cold war, they never happened en masse during a part of my life that i can remeber well, or could understand the implications of those events, so those examples mean nothing to me
and terroist attacks happeneveryday, oh i dont pray for the day
and i believe free speech and the right to get on with your life your life as long as you dont ruin others is what seperates our country from the more barbaric out there....
if you remember the handover of hong kong to china, up until mifdnight there were some people just sitting down protesting at the chinese gvernment and its treatment of tibet, and as soon as it got handed over, police came and dragged them off to whatever fate they suffered, probably a laobur camp
thats just like saying "i was never alive during the holocaust so anti-semitism means nothing to me" the past is important if you want to shape the future and it is relevant, the IRA were a far bigger threat to the establishment back then than this whole Al-Qaeda shit is now, the threat is just blown way out of proprotion, i'd like to get on with my life now and sod these cards.
Sorry, but that is the wrong question to ask.
The Govt wants to change something. They need our support so they should explain why it is important - and be able to back up mundane statements.
We are entitled to a "free" life because our forebares fought for it. It wasn't "given" by a Govt, it was paid for in blood. Dunno if you are up on your history, but the Civil War might be of interest here... Personally I believe that the Govt is trying to restrict our freedoms and I'm not prepared to standby and let it happen.
thankyou, someone provides me with the answer i was thinking and was hoping someone else would present to me
Glad to hear it!
pay by cash and leave no electronic trail, get work to pay money into a joint bank account and get someone else to take out the money for me, and use ltos of cash and no cards
otherwise im writing to my MP and MEP and local councillor
biased but in principle, true
The problem with the first few options is that ID cards will become compulsory, and you won't have an option as regards carrying them or not. Whether you use cash or plastic sadly has no bearing on that.
Keep on writing though! Encourage other people! Take a look at www.no2ID.net and keep on complaining and talking to people!