A female version of me wouldn't want me

Former Member

I was recently asked if a female version of me would want me. I realise that she'd be easily able to get as many lovers as she wanted. She could easily get richer, taller, happier, more athletic, more handsome men than me who have better social skills & more confidence than I do. Hence she'd have no reason to choose me.

sputnik

Why do you think someone is bound to get 'richer, taller, happier, more athletic, more handsome' etc partners just by being female? I get that you want to bring attention to underrepresented issues that men face and I understand that, but a lot of your statements seem to be massive generalisations with no source given for the information other than your own experience.

I don't know who asked you that but it seems like a strange question. You're beating yourself up for not meeting unfair standards - do you even want to be the way you think you 'should' be, or is it just to fit in with certain people?

Former Member

It may seem a strange question that I was asked, but it made me think about it from a female point of view. Having a much broader choice of lovers as well as easy, free-of-charge access to plenty of sex means they can be choosy & still get loads.

Millions of Miss Averages easily get sex with top-tier men (rich, handsome, charming, athletic, confident etc.) The top 10% of men enjoy a huge number of lovers. A high proportion of men value quantity over quality, whereas most women value quality over quantity. Though few women will admit it, most prefer to share a Chad than have an average man to themselves. Millions of women who could easily get Mr Averages to themselves choose to be high-value attached men's other women instead.

Typically, women have sex when they choose to (due to merely needing to be willing); men have sex when they can get it (due to it being difficult to get for most). Though many women can't get (as much or as good) sex with their partner, they can almost all easily get sex with other men.

The large majority of average men are attracted to average women. Most average women look down on average men, viewing them as short, fat, ugly, lazy, stupid, uneducated, awkward, poor etc. Men see attractive qualities in Miss Averages & focus on those attributes. Her height, income etc. won't be relevant to him, let alone a problem. Women look for faults in Mr Averages, mentally marking them down for all the ways in which they aren't Chads. For example, a man being of average height is viewed as him being too short. If he has A Levels but no degree, she doesn't think it good that he has A Levels; she thinks it bad that he doesn't have a degree. If he owns his house on a mortgage, she doesn't think of him as a homeowner, she thinks of him as a struggling/failing man in debt who couldn't afford to buy a house outright.

It's not merely my experience. Many male acquaintances of mine have said similar things.

I can rarely compete, which is why I'm rarely successful. Whether I'm at a venue or online, there are almost always men there who are significantly more appealing than me. I wish there were a way I could effectively compete, but I don't have any attributes that make me appealing.

JustV

sputnik wrote: »

Why do you think someone is bound to get 'richer, taller, happier, more athletic, more handsome' etc partners just by being female? I get that you want to bring attention to underrepresented issues that men face and I understand that, but a lot of your statements seem to be massive generalisations with no source given for the information other than your own experience.

David wrote:

It's not merely my experience. Many male acquaintances of mine have said similar things.

@sputnik raises a good point here @David that I'd really urge you to reflect on.

You said above that you and your male acquaintances have had this experience, therefore that is how society operates as a whole. You've projected your experience and those of your male aquaintances on to the general population, and on to your own future experiences.

Can you see the massive leap you're making?

Everyone does this to a degree but I think what other people are trying to tell you is that this projection is getting in the way of you challenging your own preconceptions, and therefore your ability to solve the problem you've been saying you're unable to solve.

As long as you uphold your own subjective experiences as undeniable, whole truths of the world, you're not allowing your perspective to be challenged, so you're not seeing the ways out of the situation you're stuck in. These might be your truths, but they're not the whole truth.

It's like you're in an escape room, looking through a cardboard tube, and people are saying 'hey, maybe you'll find the way out faster if you remove that tube' and you're keeping it on because you think what's visible through the tube is all there is.

I want to ask you: you've been challenged a few times on your view of dating and women. Do you think the people challenging you are genuinely just wrong and that you're right?

It might also be worth considering whether your view of women is impacting the way they treat you. You judgementally talk about 'Miss Averages' and then say that men (in your experience) are judged harshly - do you think there might be a connection between those two things?

Like, do you think the way women treat you might also be influenced by how you treat them? Or do you think women behave how they do towards you purely based on their own whims?

JustV

I should also say, people here might start losing energy to respond to you if you keep telling them that the world isn't the way they think it is. A few folks have put a lot of energy into sharing their perspectives and offering you support, but they can only see that bounce off you so many times before they stop seeing the point of responding to your posts.

If you'd like to have productive conversations here, you might need to absorb and engage with what people are saying to you more than you are.

This doesn't just apply to you - this applies to everyone. You'll notice that the most fruitful discussions here are the ones where people post with an open mind, and then engage thoughtfully and meaningfully with the people who respond, rather than re-asserting their own perspective.

Former Member

Again, I honestly apologise if I've caused any bad feeling. That's never my intention. I have a direct way of speaking which some people dislike. When I try to communicate differently, I fail to communicate what I'm trying to. I'm not able to do small talk or tact.

I've used terms including typically, most, the majority etc. because with most things there's a minority that it's not true of. For example, not all women prefer tall, handsome, athletic, charismatic, popular, high-status, high-achieving, rich men - but most do.

It's more the other way round. My attitude, beliefs, personality etc. are influenced by the way I'm treated.

It's not only a tiny number of people I'm basing things on. I see & hear how things happen with my friends, colleagues, neighbours etc. & when I've been to various places. I've watched & read things on many websites & channels.

I don't intend the terms Mr Average & Miss Average to be insulting. They're neutral terms describing average people of each gender - average height, weight, looks, health, intelligence, ability, achievement, status, personality, voice, income, appeal, potential etc.

JustV

- but most do.

This is the conviction I was referring to. Are you open to the idea that this might not be true, even if your subjective experiences tell you it is?

It's more the other way round. My attitude, beliefs, personality etc. are influenced by the way I'm treated.

I think it's both, dude. The women you interact with will feel this way too, so your views, your actions, the things you say will all impact the way they treat you. Right?

I'm not an expert in this but I feel like there might be a self-fulfilling prophecy here (no doubt fed into by your own bad experiences with dating).

If you treat this like a superficial, shallow game of attributes, the women you find will be playing the same game. And the women you find that are playing a different game (maybe one of connection and fun experiences) might rightfully feel objectified and disrespected by how you see them. Then if they don't stick around, you can experience that as another rejection due to a lack of desirable attributes you've been told they want, reinforcing your idea that the system is unfair to you.

I don't intend the terms Mr Average & Miss Average to be insulting. They're neutral terms describing average people of each gender - average height, weight, looks, health, intelligence, ability, achievement, status, personality, voice, income, appeal, potential etc.

Are they genuinely neutral in your mind? Do you see Miss Averages as having equal value to you as 'above average' women (whatever that means to you)?

Because the way you talk about it makes it sound like you think they're worth less, either to you personally or to society, or in the dating market or something.

Former Member

It's always been clear to me from an early age that a small minority of the male population get the large majority of the action. At school, college, work, parties, nightclubs, dating sites, hookup aps etc. it's usually the same types who are successful. They usually have height, good looks, athleticism, wealth, charm etc. The most popular boy in my class at college was a Chad who had a different girl on his arm & in his bed every month, as most of us didn't even get a kiss with one girl. Studies & surveys back this, so it's not just my perception. On Tinder, most men get no matches as a small minority - who are usually tall, handsome, athletic etc. - get many. Tall, handsome, rich, charming men often have multiple highly attractive lovers on the go at once. Poor, short, ugly, fat, awkward men don't. Tastes vary, but some attributes are very attractive to a high proportion of the population. I've heard dozens of women say that they much prefer (very) tall men, often including a minimum height. I've never heard a woman say she prefers short men. I'm not saying they don't exist, but there are clearly few of them.

Obviously, being much better than average (in looks skill etc.) grants significant advantages. We shouldn't pretend that cleaners & labourers are valued by society as much as scientists, inventors, professors, doctors, multi-millionaire CEOs & A-list celebrities are. A Mr Average would be significantly more successful than me, so it can't be reasonably claimed that I'm snobbish or looking down on average people. I'd gladly swap places with a Mr Average; it'd be a significant step up. Saying that different types of people have different opportunities & chances in life is relevant; it's not bigotry. It'd be better if society were not as unequal as it is, but we shouldn't pretend that everyone is equally valued & has the same chances, opportunities & appeal.

Nice guys are clearly typically unwanted. When a woman tells a man he's a nice guy, it's usually followed by a rejection. For example, "You're a really nice guy, but you're not my type". "You're a really nice guy, but you're too short for me". "You're a really nice guy, but I love bad boys". "You're a really nice guy, I hope you find someone some day". I've never heard a woman say anything like: "You're a really nice guy - let's jump into bed together" or "I'd love a nice guy to be my sex buddy".

Former Member

Nice guys are clearly typically unwanted. When a woman tells a man he's a nice guy, it's usually followed by a rejection. For example, "You're a really nice guy, but you're not my type". "You're a really nice guy, but you're too short for me". "You're a really nice guy, but I love bad boys". "You're a really nice guy, I hope you find someone some day". I've never heard a woman say anything like: "You're a really nice guy - let's jump into bed together" or "I'd love a nice guy to be my sex buddy".

nice guys aren't unwanted. trust me, most girls just want a guy who's nice and kind and won't objectify her and want her for her body. i think you've interpreted it wrong, it's not that women reject nice guys, it's just that they refer to the guy they're rejecting as nice to soften the blow. i won't deny that there's truth to some of what you're saying but that's just my point of view

Former Member

Many say they want a nice guy, yet reject nice guys they encounter.

I don't know how often she falsely claims he's nice in order to soften the rejection.

A nice guy (who's not tall, handsome, athletic etc.) has to pay a higher price - spending more time, money & effort, along with being committed & monogamous, to get sex. Tall, athletic, handsome men who aren't nice often get straight in there with NSA first-date sex - or even sex without any dating.

Former Member

@David that's just the way of the world. pretty blonde skinny girls with an hourglass figure are more likely to attract male atrention than i am, I'd have to put more effort in. that's literally just the way the world is. it's shitty but it is what it is.

Former Member

I can't see what more effort I could put in, nor how it would lead to me becoming successful.

Former Member

@David it's luck ig

sputnik

Nice guys are clearly typically unwanted.

That's not remotely clear to me. I know of plenty of nice guys who are in relationships/married... I don't know what else to say to encourage you to believe that it's possible, since you seem determined to believe it isn't, and apparently nothing anyone here says will shift that perception. I don't see how anyone here can help you if you don't want to be helped.

Former Member

In relationships/married (with women of no higher than average appeal) - they're not getting NSA sex with many women. They rarely or never got sex whilst single, so the huge price each of them had to pay to get sex was to sacrifice his freedom & devote a high proportion of his resources to one woman who's far from being his dream girl. They're far from successful & weren't ever able to play the field. Nice guys don't get laid & nice guys finish last are commonly stated phrases. I've never heard a woman says she wants a fling with a nice guy or that she finds nice guys exciting, sexy, hot, charming, interesting or entertaining.

sputnik

David wrote: »

In relationships/married (with women of no higher than average appeal) - they're not getting NSA sex with many women. They rarely or never got sex whilst single, so the huge price each of them had to pay to get sex was to sacrifice his freedom & devote a high proportion of his resources to one woman who's far from being his dream girl. They're far from successful & weren't ever able to play the field. Nice guys don't get laid & nice guys finish last are commonly stated phrases. I've never heard a woman says she wants a fling with a nice guy or that she finds nice guys exciting, sexy, hot, charming, interesting or entertaining.

Again, massive generalisations made here, and you're assuming that every man wants to 'play the field'. It begins to seem as though you think that all humans want is no-strings-attached sex, and any kind of kindness or compromise couples make for each other is just a tactic to get what they want sexually. Plus, you're overlooking the fact that many women AND men want emotionally connected, long-term, monogamous relationships and therefore don't want flings or sex-buddy arrangements, simply because that's not what they're looking for in the first place. You can't fault people for not wanting the same things you want, and you can't make them want what you want either.

Former Member

There's a significant minority of women & a far smaller minority of men who never want to play the field. The vast majority of men want to, at least for part of their lives. Most people who want LTRs also want sex on the side. Most people who can cheat do so. Most who don't cheat can't - because they can't attract anyone or don't have the time or energy or don't know how to cheat undetected. Most people have cheated &/or been cheated on. Most people can't get everything they want from one person, so they look for whatever's missing in other people.

I'd want a female version of me, but she wouldn't want me. I'm not going to be chosen for NSA sex because everywhere I go there are many men who are more appealing than me who'll be chosen instead.