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Inciting hate crimes?

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
Just found this article, which is a bit out of date; what do you think of it?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/gayrights/story/0,12592,1045315,00.html

Is Tatchel right to condemn these people? Do hateful lyrics mean that they are bad musicians? Are award ceremonies political? If not, should they be?

Food for thought. For my money OutRage are right. Inciting hate crimes is sick and wrong (even more so then sugar in tea!), and although I don't know the details of the lyrics in question I gather they're about setting gays on fire, etc. :mad:

How can people be so close-minded? :(

Picc.
x

Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ppl have these lyrics in their songs to express their point of view, society has suddenly made it wrong for having any point of view, if u hate gays, then so be it, thats what u are and u shuldn't b embarresed by it, every1 deep down has a problem with some1 else but are too wrapped in whats right and wrong to say anything about it, ppl shuld open their eyes and not be afraid whats right and wrong
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If people choose to write about whatever they want in their lyrics then so be it...who's going to stop them? they are expressing their views and what they are thinking, so what?

    piccolo; i'm sure there are things that you hate and what others would find offensive if you told them about your hates, so simple, people are different views.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Shogun
    piccolo; i'm sure there are things that you hate and what others would find offensive if you told them about your hates, so simple, people are different views.

    Oh, yes, I can offend as well as the next person. As I say, I haven't actually heard the songs in question, but it seems to me that if the lyrics really can be seen to be inciting hate crimes (be they against gays, paedophiles, muslims or black people), then something ought to be done about it. Just don't ask me what...

    All right, maybe I'm being a bit uptight!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    We had a discussion recently regarding freedom of expression vs. hateful and offensive language. My opinion is that in these cases the lyrics should be censored.

    If anyone fails to see what's wrong with them, try this: substitute the gay bashing stuff with lyrics about being attracted to young children and wanting to have sex with little boys...

    Get the picture?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by piccolo
    Oh, yes, I can offend as well as the next person. As I say, I haven't actually heard the songs in question, but it seems to me that if the lyrics really can be seen to be inciting hate crimes (be they against gays, paedophiles, muslims or black people), then something ought to be done about it. Just don't ask me what...

    All right, maybe I'm being a bit uptight!

    I'm sure whatever songs people are now yapping about aren't that bad at all, just people making a big deal out of it and whatever the songs are i'm sure they don't actually mean it 100% deep down.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Shogun
    whatever the songs are i'm sure they don't actually mean it 100% deep down.

    That's as may be, but doess it matter whether they mean it or not, if they still say it? No one is born hateful, hate is something we are taught. These artists are in a position where they are potentially influential, and there are people silly enough to listen to them and take them seriously.
    Originally posted by Aladdin
    If anyone fails to see what's wrong with them, try this: substitute the gay bashing stuff with lyrics about being attracted to young children and wanting to have sex with little boys...

    Exactly. Imagine the fuss people would kick up if it were racist lyrics? (I do remember the post about freedom of speech, Aladdin, and I agree that censorship is sometimes necessary.)

    I started this post to gauge opinions not to shout about "right" and "wrong", I'm not condemning anyone else's opinions on the matter, but prejudice is a big soap-box issue for me!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I find Peter Tatchell personally offensive, it doesnt mean I should be allowed to censor him.

    Though I will say this: having Tatchell smacked is the only good thing Robert Mugabe has ever done. For a man who witters on about respect, he doesnt show very much of it to anyone who doesnt think hes wonderful.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Kermit
    I find Peter Tatchell personally offensive, it doesnt mean I should be allowed to censor him.

    Very true. I don't know much about the guy, (aside from the few obvious points) except that one of my gay friends has said that were they both straight she'd marry him in a second.... lol

    Perhaps the gay community have over-reacted, but I stand by my opinion that people should only be allowed to cause offence so far, and saying that someone, anyone, ought to be killed for who they are... well, who cares if you really believe it or not, it's wrong.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Looking at an experiment by Bandura and the Social learning Theory, yes, the media can affect the way in which people act... maybe they'll even act aggressive... it could be a case of 'monkey see, monkey do'.

    But in all honesty these people have freedom of speech, just like Rage Against the Machine were communist and a lot of punk bands are Anti-America whilst Marylin Manson is anti-organised religion, it's simply a point of view.

    If you ask me about what causes hate crimes, it's newspapers like the Sun that Mr. Murdoch owns... racist fucks. They're what people go by and what they use to justify their prejudice. Some of the reports that have been done in the sun were disgusting.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    OK, so I sound a bit like an anti-free-speech fascist bitch :eek2:

    I take your points about freedom of speech. Perhaps some form of censorship along the lines of film censorship could be introduced? Whereby under-13's, say, couldn't buy a full version of certain albums (words or phrases blanked out, etc.)?

    But I'm straying from the point. I don't know for sure how much impact musicians have on our ideas, and I suppose most people are sensible enough not to take music so seriously, so no probs.
  • SkiveSkive No discipline. No morality. No respect. New ForestPosts: 15,182 Skive's The Limit
    Excerpts of lyrics from Elephant Man, Bounty Killer and Beenie Man which incite the assault and murder of lesbians and gay men:_

    Beenie Man’s hit tune, Bad Man Chi Chi Man (Bad Man, Queer Man), instructs listeners to kill gay DJs:

    “If yuh nuh chi chi (queer) man wave yuh right hand and (NO!!!)/If yuh nuh lesbian wave yuh right hand and (NO!!!)Some bwoy will go a jail fi kill man tun bad man chi chi man!!!…/Tell mi, sumfest it should a be a showdown/Yuh seem to run off a stage like a clown (Kill Dem DJ!!!)”.
    A Nuh Fi Wi Fault by Elephant Man boasts:

    “Battyman fi dead!/Please mark we word/Gimme tha tech-nine/Shoot dem like bird”. _

    Another Elephant Man track, We Nuh Like Gay, goes:
    “Battyman fi dead! Tek dem by surprise/Ghetta in shot head, cau me big gun
    collide…/gimme me Tech-9, General B. wid de chrome an waa shine/Harry Toddler shot out ah bugger-man”.
    _Elephant Man's song, Log On, celebrates setting fire to a gay person and stamping on their body:

    “Log on and step pon chi chi (queer) man/Dance wi a dance and a bun (burn) out a freaky (queer) man…/Step pon him like a old cloth/A dance wi a dance and a crush out dem…/do di walk, mek mi see the light and di torch dem fass”.

    Bounty Killer’s Mr. Wanna Be includes the lyrics:

    “Hear this likkle punk guh sing a battyman concept/Seh him hood Deanie, a deh suh mi object/And him guh pon Mirage, and guh dis-respect…/War mi start dat by reservation and request/To kill dis yah fool, to me dat is no stress/Murder dem fast just like a Federal Express/And mi run wild west _

    Another Level, featuring Bounty Killer with Babycham, says:

    “Bun a fire pon a kuh pon mister fagoty (Uh huh)/Cocky deh yah suh fi wheel unda Dorothy (Uh huh)/Ears ah ben up and a wince under agony/Poop man fi drown a dat a yawd man philosophy (Uh huh)”
    Yesterday is history
    Tomorrow is a mystery
    But today is a gift
    That’s why it’s call the present
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Not very ambiguous really, souns like there is a distinct possibility they 'mean it a 100% deep down inside........' :rolleyes:

    These people are talking about killing homosexuals, this is more than a simple expression of a viewpoint, you should be able to tell the difference........

    Turlough, I think it very important that epeople think about what is right and wrong, it is one og the things that makes us human, I may enjoy beating the crap of people but I am not going to because I think it is wrong, the world is a better place for it..........
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But like I said, if someone made a song fantasising about shagging 8-year-old children you can be sure the song would be banned in seconds, its author(s) prosecuted and a massive uproar would ensue, headed by those bastions of justice and fairness the S*n and the Daily Mosley.

    So why the double standards?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Couldn't agree more.........

    Hope you've been OK over the summer Al...........
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    .
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No there is nothing wrong with you. I can't understand anything either (although I'm a foreigner after all ;) ).

    Thanks Toadborg, summer's been fine. Nice to have you back!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    There is something "wrong" with hatred, a perfectly natural emotion? Pray tell, what?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by girl with sharp teeth
    is there something wrong with me? i can't understand any of that.

    its patois
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Heydrich
    There is something "wrong" with hatred, a perfectly natural emotion? Pray tell, what?

    Indeed, it's a weakness isn't it?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Hatred is a natural emotion, but arguably one we ought to try to suppress. But feeling hate is different to encouraging it, and it seems to me that these people aren't content with hating groups of people simply for who they are but they also have to press their views on those who listen to their music. Of course, you have a choice whether to listen or not, but if you start listening to Beenie Man (for example) and then come across one of the songs quoted here, how would you respond? Perhaps you'd think, "hey, I respect this artist. And being gay doesn't seem right to me, so maybe he's right, maybe we should give them a good seeing to". I dunno, most people are more intelligent than that, but it bothers me.

    Picc.
    xxx
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well I see hatred as a weakness. hatred is something you'd kill for, love is something you'd die for.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    >>>Hatred is a natural emotion, but arguably one we ought to try to suppress.

    Let me guess. Hatred should be suppressed because it presupposes groups which are to be hated. Since everyone must be liked, for some preposterous ungiven irrational reason, it thus follows that hatred must be repressed. I disagree. There is no reason whatsoever why EVERYONE should be liked, regardless. Hatred is a perfectly natural human emotion, a quite useful one as well. Why is this? Hatred facilitates will-to-power. Since being is will-to-power, this makes hatred a value as opposed to equality, an unvalue which negates choice.

    >>>But feeling hate is different to encouraging it, and it seems to me that these people aren't content with hating groups of people simply for who they are but they also have to press their views on those who listen to their music.

    Are they forcing anyone to listen to their music? I do not seem to understand why I must be forced to witness two disgusting homosexuals making out in public but have someone tell me I cannot listen to a record because it is "insensitive."

    >>>Of course, you have a choice whether to listen or not, but if you start listening to Beenie Man (for example) and then come across one of the songs quoted here, how would you respond? Perhaps you'd think, "hey, I respect this artist. And being gay doesn't seem right to me, so maybe he's right, maybe we should give them a good seeing to". I dunno, most people are more intelligent than that, but it bothers me.

    What it all boils down to is the politically correct wanting to force their ideology onto others. We must have tolerance they say, tolerance of course being tolerance of what they themselves find to be acceptable.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Heydrich
    Hatred should be suppressed because it presupposes groups which are to be hated.

    Yup. What possible reason could you have for automatically hating a person because they fit into a certain category that you don't agree with. I don't like homophobia, but I don't hate homophobes. So why do people who disagree with homosexuality insist on hating homosexuals?
    Originally posted by Heydrich
    I do not seem to understand why I must be forced to witness two disgusting homosexuals making out in public but have someone tell me I cannot listen to a record because it is "insensitive."

    Firstly there is nothing disgusting about any genuine, consensual relationship between adults. If I can put up with straight couples kissing publicly, surely you can live with gay couples doing likewise?

    I never said you shouldn't listen to the music. It strikes me that you're a sensible person, you know your own mind and you've forned your own opinions. Fine. But what if there are people out there less mature than you? What if people really take these lyrics literally? Does the artist have no responsibility for the reaction to his work?
    What it all boils down to is the politically correct wanting to force their ideology onto others. We must have tolerance they say, tolerance of course being tolerance of what they themselves find to be acceptable.

    Maybe. But tolerance doesn't have to mean you like homosexuality, or that you approve of gay relationships - but encouraging others to kill gays? I just can't justfiy it. Sorry.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    >>>Yup. What possible reason could you have for automatically hating a person because they fit into a certain category that you don't agree with.

    This presupposes 'reasons' are necessary to hate such people who fit into such categories. Your 'reasons,' of course, are not necessary in the slightest. This is nothing more than an example of someone projecting rationalism onto human behaviour. The only thing that is required is an aesthetic preference and a little bit of will.

    >>>I don't like homophobia, but I don't hate homophobes. So why do people who disagree with homosexuality insist on hating homosexuals?

    Perhaps such individuals, like myself, find homosexuality to be aesthetically disgusting. Ethics and aesthetics are two different things by the way.

    >>>Firstly there is nothing disgusting about any genuine, consensual relationship between adults.

    Sure there is. "Disgusting" is an aesthetic judgement that presupposes an aesthetic preference which presupposes an individual. Whether such an individual finds homosexuality, like myself, to be absolutely disgusting is a matter of personal will.

    >>>If I can put up with straight couples kissing publicly, surely you can live with gay couples doing likewise?

    No, actually there are some of us who cannot. It is simply a matter of will and power to be honest. The only thing that is required to abolish the publicity of such degeneracy is the power to erradicate it and the will to do so.

    >>>I never said you shouldn't listen to the music. It strikes me that you're a sensible person, you know your own mind and you've forned your own opinions. Fine. But what if there are people out there less mature than you? What if people really take these lyrics literally? Does the artist have no responsibility for the reaction to his work?

    Your argument seems to presuppose that there is something objectively wrong with hating homosexuals. Hatred, being an ethical judgement, is subjective in nature. There is nothing objectively "right" about hating homosexuals just as there is nothing objectively "wrong" about hating homosexuals.

    >>>Maybe. But tolerance doesn't have to mean you like homosexuality, or that you approve of gay relationships - but encouraging others to kill gays? I just can't justfiy it. Sorry.

    I do not see how tolerance, a substanceless anti-value, can be justified in terms of positive ethics.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    >>>If I can put up with straight couples kissing publicly, surely you can live with gay couples doing likewise?

    Actually, I'm none to fond of anybody getting off with each other in public, just to add that. Gay or straight there's a time and a place to do stuff like that... but I also respect that there are differing opinions on the matter and people have free will to do it anyway.
    Your argument seems to presuppose that there is something objectively wrong with hating homosexuals. Hatred, being an ethical judgement, is subjective in nature. There is nothing objectively "right" about hating homosexuals just as there is nothing objectively "wrong" about hating homosexuals.

    But why hate somebody because of what they do in their private lives? It's not like you have to be in a same sex relationship too... however, like my friend says, "homophobics are scared because they know they'll like it too!" :p
    Maybe. But tolerance doesn't have to mean you like homosexuality, or that you approve of gay relationships - but encouraging others to kill gays? I just can't justfiy it. Sorry.

    Who can justify it? It's always the weak who pick on the minority and says a lot more about their own insecurities than about the gay community itself. In a sense I find homophobia amusing because of how scared and weedy homophobes in my area tend to be, I piss on them... but then as long as they keep away from my brother or friends they can believe what they want.

    I have never met a homophobe with high self-esteem or high intelligence.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Heydrich - its quite simple. Now I'm not a Christian by any means, but I think the Bible has it about right where it says "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Treat others as you would want to be treated. Be able to put yourself in another persons place. Why? Because its about empathy and feelings. Which is what makes us human. If you can't understand that then I would suggest you have some kind of underlying personality disorder which makes you incapable of empathy, such as Narcisstic Personality Disorder. In fact given your liking for grandiose language and over-inflated sense of your own self-importance and intelligence (political scientist? Don't make me laugh) this seems quite likely.
    Now I know you're probably going to come back with some sub-Nietzschian poorly understood bullshit about "will to power", but really, have a word with yourself. Its coming across like a misunderstood teenager who swallowed a dictionary and a copy of "Beyond Good and Evil". Bet you listen to Death in June as well. :rolleyes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I just wanna ask Heydrich...

    Have you ever actually been involved in direct action with white supremist groups? Ever gone out of your way to hurt somebody because of their skin colour?

    Racists travel in packs, mainly because they're all cowards.
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