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The Stop the War march...why?

SystemSystem Posts: 8,649 Staff Team
I went on the first two of these because at that point I thought there was actualy a vague hope of being able to change the course of things.

But now, what do they actualy want? For all the troops to pack up and go home? Is that really going to be any better, the country would slip further into total anarcy and more people would suffer.

As much as I hate to admit it, now surely the best option is to do it properly. Lots more money, better organisation, more troops, give the people back their power, water etc. Then hand it back and sod off.

I didnt want this war, but seeing as its happened we have to follow through and finish it properly.

Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yes finish it properly, pull out and let the UN adminster the reconstruction. Our continued presence there only demonstrates that it is an installed puppet regime we are after, not "liberation" and certainly not social justice.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The problem is that because of the constant drip drip of dead US troops the amount of money needed wont come from there. I think its heading futher and futher towards just a total balls up, a half arsed approach that will make everything worse.

    And wheres PNJ when you need him? If you can read this mate, please come back, all is forgiven.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Weren't they asking an end to the allied occupation? Makes sense to me.

    What should be done without further ado is for the US and Britain to piss off immediately and for a UN peace-keeping force to oversee a rapid transaction of powers to a representative, elected Iraqi council.

    The US would never do that though, since their one and only objective is to install a puppet regime and to have permanent control of the Iraqi revenues and to secure very lucrative reconstruction projects for American companies.

    As far as I'm concerned, the UN should not provide a single soldier so long as the US remains cocky and refuses to hand over control.

    Now going back to the demos, be all prepared for the mad murdering Texan’s visit to Britain in November. Because there are going to be ugly scenes indeed.

    I can think of few things more gratifying than the Bushbots and right-wingers in America watching their “British friends and allies” demonstrate and heckle Bush everywhere he goes.
    :D
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    This is indeed proven to be the very quagmire that we who opposed this war from the start said it would. Lunatic Neo-Cons and their complete misapprehension of the world outside of America's shores! :mad:

    Yes, I too have looked back on the many posts which pnj made spouting on about the wonderful aftermath this invasion would lead to and frankly just about every rebuttal and warning to him of the spin and lies he was swallowing so unquestionably has been vindicated.

    I truly wonder what he thinks of his Fox News and NY Post sources now.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If in Gulf War 1 Saddam had offered to pull out of Kuwait peacefully how many people would have complained that he had left the place in a bit of a mess?

    Hey everybody, hows it all going, whats this I here of 'degenerative mud-slinging' in LadyJades sticky? :p
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    Yes finish it properly, pull out and let the UN adminster the reconstruction. Our continued presence there only demonstrates that it is an installed puppet regime we are after, not "liberation" and certainly not social justice.

    If 'we' pull out then does the UN have the logistical ability, or even simply the numbers, to administer Iraq?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don't think it'd be that difficult. At the end of the day Iraq was a functioning country with functioning institutions- despite the sanctions- before the US and Britain “liberated” it.

    It is only the US' long-planned goal to seize control of Iraqi assets that prevents all institutions to be run by locals for locals.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    That and the notorious band of Dearborn Michigan opportunists under Chalabi who have dominated the process of political and material reconstruction.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Aladdin
    I don't think it'd be that difficult. At the end of the day Iraq was a functioning country with functioning institutions- despite the sanctions- before the US and Britain “liberated” it.

    It is only the US' long-planned goal to seize control of Iraqi assets that prevents all institutions to be run by locals for locals.

    You think it will be so easy for the iraqis to run iraq again? Yes they had a functioning country before the invasion...They are a long way from that now. I think theyve got a long way to go before they can run it alone..

    and any govt that is setup by iraqis will be plagued by powergrabs and corruption so will need an efficient and able military/police force to provide security.

    I dont like seeing the US/UK troops there but im finding it hard to see another viable option. I dont believe Iraq would be better off if the US/UK troops pulled out.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    and any govt that is setup by iraqis will be plagued by powergrabs and corruption so will need an efficient and able military/police force to provide security.

    And you dont suppose that is precisely what the US imposed ruling council with its domination by INC Bushite collaborators is all about?

    At least if it were left to the Iraqis with full UN oversight and administrative infrastructure it would be their own self determinant and indigenous power struggles and not the transparent hijacking of the process to serve US interests first.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Corruption and power-grabbing is already prevalent there, its just that the corruption at the muinute serves the US' purpose- oil to Israel, and money to corporate America. The SECOND that Iraq is not useful to our aims we will leave, and it will take Iraq decades to recover to anything like the position they were in in 1999, let alone 1989.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    And you dont suppose that is precisely what the US imposed ruling council with its domination by INC Bushite collaborators is all about?

    At least if it were left to the Iraqis with full UN oversight and administrative infrastructure it would be their own self determinant and indigenous power struggles and not the transparent hijacking of the process to serve US interests first.

    Clandestine, I have no interest in talking about the motives of the US with you..My post was about the ability of the Iraqis to govern themselves after having been so damaged by the war.

    Personally I put the welfare of Iraq above spiting the US..I dont care if the US hijacks the process for their own gains so long as things are sorted for the Iraqis.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Balddog
    I dont care if the US hijacks the process for their own gains so long as things are sorted for the Iraqis.

    Oh, by the end of it things will be "sorted" for the Iraqis. And Im sure theyll be eternally grateful for it :rolleyes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Kermit
    Oh, by the end of it things will be "sorted" for the Iraqis. And Im sure theyll be eternally grateful for it :rolleyes:

    Well I know what I meant by sorted, what did you mean?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It apears Balddog that you think of Iraqis as all backward uneducated desert rats with no expertise nor intellectual savvy to establish their own self determinant governing aparatus. Nothing could be further from the truth.

    Although news sources in the US wont be quick to paint a comprehensive picture beyond that of how desperately the Iraqis need our presence to rebuild. :rolleyes:

    The same media who convinced the public that Iraqis would be thronging gleefully to welcome our occupation.

    Its not about spiting the US (which I do not) but rather a subset of its indigenous corporate interests and a minority and highly myopic political ideology that has misrepresented this issue since the start.

    Iraqis can do it themselves and should be left to do so if any validity is to be gained for the "liberation" argument.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    It apears Balddog that you think of Iraqis as all backward uneducated desert rats with no expertise nor intellectual savvy to establish their own self determinant governing aparatus. Nothing could be further from the truth.


    You know that he doesn't.........

    Seeing as the vast majority of those who have governed Iraq for more than 2 decades were Ba'athists who will now be excluded from govt i think it is fair to say that there is little native expertise in government.

    As you were keen to point out before the war, Iraq is a divided nation with many different factions, religions and races in disagreement that would make it difficult to set up a govt not to mention the lack of a monopoly of force to make such a govt work..........
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So, it took our own US civil war to sort ourselves out finally, who are we to say that the factions cant fight it out if that is the inevitable direction of things since we opened the flood gates of chaos by invading?

    Not that I welcome a civil war, but certainly with non-partisan UN administration and oversight rather than unilateral US occupation, there is greater chance for Iraqis to determine what they want rather than being forced to conform to our foreign ideals.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I agree that having the UN in charge would be better but I also think it is obvious that unilaterally pulling out would be a terrible disaster........
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Actually I believe that staying would be the real disaster, both for the Iraqis who's homes our soldiers are routinely busting into and who are being rounded up on all manner of contrived reports our forces are unable to substantiate as well as for our long term national security and integrity on the world stage.

    Basically, if Washington wants to prove that this invasion was conducted for the magnanimous last ditch resons they have come up with, then there is no better way to do so other than turning the whole situation over to the UN as soon as possible.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I agree.........
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    It apears Balddog that you think of Iraqis as all backward uneducated desert rats with no expertise nor intellectual savvy to establish their own self determinant governing aparatus. Nothing could be further from the truth..

    No, theres something thats quite a bit further from the truth, and thats your absolutely disgusting way of twisting and distorting the things people say.

    I dont believe the Iraqis are in any position to govern themselves at present because we just launched a HUGE FUCKING WAR right in their back garden. We destroyed their infrastructure, their public services, all civil cohesion, their military and their police. Thats why I think they cant run a government and I made that blatantly clear in my posts.

    I also never said that the Iraqis needed our presence to rebuild, but they do need a presence. If you, for some reason, have the need to belittle and insult people in order to prove your point then feel free but please dont put words in my mouth, do NOT slander me and do no associate me with your racist thoughts.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I challenge you to demonstrate how my thoughts are racist???

    Sorry if you think I am twisting things, but your post suggested simply more of the same sort of apologetic for this invasion that has continued to come from the right wing camp regardless of the systematic string of lies and claims that have been debunked.

    I may have indeed jumped on you unfairly, but i am fed up to the gills with those who absolutely refuse to concede the truth that is now as transparent as the day is long, namely that they were misled and our troops have put in risk for nothing more than wanton corporate greed.

    As you will note, I do in fact advocate "some kind of presence" simply not that our US military (who should never have been there in the first place and should thus be brought home). The UN has more than half a century of nation building expertise and is fully capable (regardless of lame ass media BS back home working feverishly to convince the public otherwise) of administering the transitions and reconstruction far better than we.

    Do be aware that arguments of "more time" no longer wash, when one considers that the monster Saddam himself took a mere 48 days following the devastation of Gulf War I to restore all electricity and water treatment to the entire country.

    Here we are some 6 MONTHS!! later as the most powerful nation on earth and we still have not restored basic services.

    So how constructive and magnanimous is OUR presence do you think???
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    I challenege you to demonstrate how my thoughts are racist???

    You are obviously thinking in racial terms as you suggested that I was...Despite none of my posts even suggesting I thought in such a way.
    the ability of the Iraqis to govern themselves after having been so damaged by the war.
    You think it will be so easy for the iraqis to run iraq again? Yes they had a functioning country before the invasion...They are a long way from that now. I think theyve got a long way to go before they can run it alone..

    Now both of those explicitly state my reasons for thinking Iraq would be unable to govern itself at the present time, the war. There is nothing in my posts that would suggest the racist shit you accused me of. The only reason you would have for posting such a thing would be if thats something you yourself believe, or more likely, you thought you would try and take a cheap, petty and deceitful jab at my character in order to discredit me.

    Either way, it was you who brought that racist shit into this thread.

    If you want to label me as right wing then go right ahead, if it makes you feel better :) I did support the war, I believed it was the right thing to do at the time. Do I support the current situation? No. I would support it if things were being done as promised. Maybe I was taken in by the propaganda, maybe I do have too much faith in our governments, maybe im too trusting..I have no problem admitting that.

    Regardless of motivations, I still believe that Iraq is better off now than it was under Saddam. Things will get better, the US cant get away with messing around for much longer and eventually they will have to do some of the things they promised.

    Anyway, i would thank you not to make up such lies about my views again :)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I did not "make up lies", I addressed what I considered to be a glaring oversight insofar as the restoration of services and functional life in Iraq following Gulf War I was done in a mere 48 days by the monster himself. And here we are, the most powerful nation on the planet and 6 months down the road still no water or electricity for the vast majority.

    We are certainly concentrating on the oil infrastructure though ;)

    Given the level of technical and intellectual acumen within Iraqi society, the only things I consider to be an impediment to their restoration of self determinant governance is our continued presence (only aggravating and already negative situation), our sycophant puppets dominating the ruling council and dictating who in Iraqi society may or may not be party to the process and the predominance of our own US industries snapping up all the lucrative contracts that would otherwise have provided renewed enrichment and much needed employment for indigenous Iraqi firms.

    So in that regard I did admittedly get over heated toward you, but my criticism was merely to highlight that regardless of the war torn nature of the country, Iraqis are fully capable of reconstructing their own society without our continued illegal intervention.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Im not bothered about your comments on infrastructure, its fine that you post such things..It was this disgusting paragraph that I was extremely insulted by.
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    It apears Balddog that you think of Iraqis as all backward uneducated desert rats with no expertise nor intellectual savvy to establish their own self determinant governing aparatus. Nothing could be further from the truth.

    You didnt seek to highlight anything whatsoever, just to badmouth another poster..Something you seem to do on a very regular basis. Its sad because you do make very good points.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I get uptight. sorry

    But in point of fact that was more a case of badmouthing whilst highlighting my point of contention about Iraqi capacity to reconstruct without our occupation or control.
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