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Cot Death - Kissing Babies on the Lips

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
Ages ago I saw an article that said scientists reckon that cot death might be increased in household where people kiss their babies on the lips .. has anyone else heard this?

It kind of makes sense cos the mouth has more bacteria and germs then any other part of the body and if you kiss them on the lips you're transferring these to their tiny bodies - whose immune system hasn't fully developted yet.

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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I never kissed my newborn baby on his lips and he died of cot death when he was just 2 months old.

    At this time I was told to lay my baby on his front, was told it was the safest position for the baby, he died and now they say NEVER lay them on their tummy, babies must be placed on their side with something to keep them there (like a rolled towel) or lay them on their back.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I never heard that one :confused:

    The only ones I know are laying a baby on it's back so it can't roll over, putting it's feet to the bottom of the cot, using several thin layers rather than one heavy one, not smoking around the baby, that sort of thing.

    And sorry to hear about that Becky :(
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Was a few years ago Laura an we were told different stuff then. To be honest I really dont think they will ever find out why. Cot death has been happening for such a long time and I dont feel that they are anywhere nearer in finding out why.


    Apparently its more boys than girls so thats why i desperatley wanted a girl with my last baby, who is now 7 :)
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    How old are you? I aleways thought hyou were younger.

    I'm sorry about cot death, i read omewher this baby fell out of its surrounding area on ts mum bed down the side and was squashed beside the radiator. The mum panicked and found him, the heater wa on and when he was removed some of his features had kind of...melted or somehtig.

    Its sad to think so much bad can happen to something so innocent ;(
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I read somewhere that its good to lick your babies. Especially if you're breastfeeding, cos you're licking all the nutrients off their skin and then passing it back through your milk.

    Crazy.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    xila im 40 shhhhh ;)

    Yeah its one of the most traumatic things in my life, Ive learned to live with it but never got over his death. It took me a long time to actually want another baby because I was petrified that the same would happen again. I used to be very panicky if she was ill. I would be checking she was breathing all the time and was far too over protective of her, I still am which I think is because I dont ever want to lose her like I did my son.

    Anyway enough of me :)

    I do not like it when they say "new findings" because unless they have actual proof why write stuff and get people thinking they have found a cure? They should tell us when they have the scientific evidence that it is a certain thing.
    Thats my opinion anyway :)
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I prefer to hear people's theory - I'd have never have even thought kissing a baby on the lips my be dangerous - but in many ways the theory behind it makes sense.

    My friend just had triplets - don't know how they sleep at night - Apart from the crying - I'd be up all night worrying about them.

    There are baby monitors now that show a series of lights that go up and down as the baby breathes - although it's not a perfect device and I don't think it wakes you up or anything if it doesn't detect non-breathing.

    I remember years and years ago watching a programme about people that die in Police Jail Cells and there was some kind of new device that could detect a person's breathing (as long as they were the only person in the room) and if it stopped - the on duty officer could check the cell.

    I often wondered if that had been developed into a device for babies.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Becky Boo, I totally agree with you. There's news releases every week about some miracle cure or another, yet how many of them actually happen? Very few! It's really unfair, cos it gives people false hope, and people can be really desperate for hope when they or someone close to them is really ill.
    Sorry to hear about your baby, but glad to hear you have a lovely little girl! Hugs xxx ;)
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    QUOTE]Originally posted by DiamondGeezer

    There are baby monitors now that show a series of lights that go up and down as the baby breathes - although it's not a perfect device and I don't think it wakes you up or anything if it doesn't detect non-breathing.
    [/QUOTE]

    We had a monitor for Becks when she was a baby and just did not like it at all. She could be in her cot and all you could hear was this alarm going off, there was nothing wrong with her. I was beginning to be a nervous wreck, not being able to sleep just waiting for this alarm to go off. Some people can only settle if they have the alarm but there are also lots more like myself who coulld just not get away with the monitor, so anyway I sent mine back.
    As we had a cot death baby we were also offered a course to go on so that if ever she stoped breathing we would know how to rescussitate her. It was very good that course because it at least showed us what to do if anything happened, we actually worked on like a doll to do it.
    The only things I would say to anyone who has a baby is dont over heat them, try to imagine yourself on a hot day with an outfit on, a little jacket, a hat and then a blanket you would be roasting, so the baby would also feel exactly like you.
    Make sure they sleep on their back, or if you prefer on their side with a blanket rolled up into like a long tube and place that down by the baby so they cant roll over.
    Never smoke where a baby is.
    If baby is unwell dont put it off get them seen sooner rather than later, if a baby is not feeding then they can dehydrate so this needs to be taken seriously.
    I never had a cot bumper, the padded thing that goes round the cot. Baby could get trapped and suffocate (probably very unlikely) but I was not prepared to take any risk.
    I never let Becks sleep with me because I was scared incase she got too warm or if I rolled over onto her, but that was my preference.

    Hope them bits of information can help anyone who may be slightly worried about cot death :)
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Re: Cot Death - Kissing Babies on the Lips
    Originally posted by DiamondGeezer
    It kind of makes sense cos the mouth has more bacteria and germs then any other part of the body and if you kiss them on the lips you're transferring these to their tiny bodies - whose immune system hasn't fully developted yet.
    And how, may I ask, do you think babies develop an immune system?? They can only develop one if they are exposed to germs and bacteria that are found around us every day.

    A lot of illnesses such as hayfever and asthma are being attributed to the fact that we are too clean (as a society). Children are no longer allowed to play in mud etc for fear of what they might catch!

    I have a friend who is ill 24/7 - she always has some tummy upset or is suffering from viruses and other nasty bugs, simply because she was brought up in an environment that was too clean and even as a young adult she is forever washing her hands and scrubbing herself.

    There is such a thing as "too clean" and therefore I think these claims are stupid and utter nonsense.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I hadn't heard that before but yes it does seem to make sense
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Re: Re: Cot Death - Kissing Babies on the Lips
    Originally posted by BumbleBee
    And how, may I ask, do you think babies develop an immune system?? They can only develop one if they are exposed to germs and bacteria that are found around us every day.

    A lot of illnesses such as hayfever and asthma are being attributed to the fact that we are too clean (as a society). Children are no longer allowed to play in mud etc for fear of what they might catch!

    I have a friend who is ill 24/7 - she always has some tummy upset or is suffering from viruses and other nasty bugs, simply because she was brought up in an environment that was too clean and even as a young adult she is forever washing her hands and scrubbing herself.

    There is such a thing as "too clean" and therefore I think these claims are stupid and utter nonsense.


    I agree with most of what you say .. I travel to Africa quite a bit and there you never hear of things like children being allergic to peanuts... children there are generally healthier .. but try keeping an open mind .. there is a huge difference between a baby and a toddler or a child. We are talking about babies in this thread NOT children as you mention above.

    And to answer your question

    how, may I ask, do you think babies develop an immune system??

    I'd say very slowly

    The theory is kissing a baby on the lips bombards thems with too many different types of bacteria too quickly ...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Re: Re: Re: Cot Death - Kissing Babies on the Lips
    Originally posted by DiamondGeezer
    I'd say very slowly

    The theory is kissing a baby on the lips bombards thems with too many different types of bacteria too quickly ...
    I asked my boss this morning (she's a doctor of thirty years) and she said nobody in the medical profession takes these findsing seriously, and she said they had been knocking around for several years. She thinks the initial reseach was done by medical students, which isn't to say they aren't as clever, just that their knowledge isn't fully developed yet.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Cot Death - Kissing Babies on the Lips
    Originally posted by BumbleBee
    I asked my boss this morning (she's a doctor of thirty years) and she said nobody in the medical profession takes these findsing seriously, and she said they had been knocking around for several years. She thinks the initial reseach was done by medical students, which isn't to say they aren't as clever, just that their knowledge isn't fully developed yet.

    Your Boss can't speak for every Doctor on the planet and she doesn't know everything there is to know.

    The fact she doesn't even seem to consider the possibility would worry me if she was my Docor. .. an open mind can work wonders.

    Below is one example of a report from a study:

    24 October 2000

    Cot death link to mothers' kisses

    By Celia Hall, Medical Editor

    Doctors believe that a common bacterium usually linked to stomach ulcers and heart disease may also cause cot deaths.

    It is possible that the infection is passed to babies in their parents' saliva by kissing or by licking a dummy or bottle before putting it in the baby's mouth. Although the exact effect of the presence of helicobacter pylori on the health of the baby is not clear, it may be part of a chain of events that leads to cot death.

    The researchers say today that they found h.pylori in the tissue of nearly 90 per cent of a group of babies who suffered sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS) compared to 12.5 per cent of a control group of babies who died from other known causes.

    Dr Jonathan Kerr, of the infectious diseases research group, Manchester University, and colleagues say there is substantial evidence that infection plays a part in cot death.

    He says in the Archives of Disease in Childhood that two genes associated with h.pylori were found in tissue samples from 28 of the 32 SIDS babies but in only one of the comparison babies.

    Dr Kerr said yesterday that the results would be "very highly significant" if they were found to relate to the whole population. He said: "To parents we would emphasise previous advice related to known risk factors for SIDS, for example avoidance of the prone [face down] sleeping position and parental smoking. We would add that the transfer of saliva from carers to the mouths of babies should be prevented. Feeding bottles and pacifiers should not be sucked by carers."

    Joyce Epstein, director of the Foundation for the Study of Infant Deaths, said: "These are interesting findings. It is only a hypothesis at this stage and it is uncertain whether this study has any practical implications."

    Last year there were 419 cot deaths in babies in Britain.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I can see where the report is coming from, and with the sucking bottles and dummies thing it makes sense. But if it's passed from the parent's saliva, surely just kissing a baby wouldn't have that much of an effect?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ive never heard of this!and ive been kissing my son on the lips alot, if i stop this now though do you think he might feel a bit neglected?maybe i should still kiss him just not as much, Im sorry to hear that becky it happens to so many people and to be honest i dont think there is a cure i think its just one of those things that happens:(
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I very much doubt that kissing babies on the lips is bad for them, the baby has just spent all that time sharing everything with its mother in the womb, and they think a kiss on the lips will harm them??? Throughout history mothers have weaned their babies by chewing food till its soft then feeding it to their babies. Babies get all their mothers antibodies from their mother via the placenta and then from the breastmilk, although obviously you wouldnt kiss a baby if you were ill yourself, I cant see that if you are well and healthy, there would be a risk. Its just one more way to make mothers feel paranoid. Most of the things Becky has said, are the general guidelines for reducing the risk of cot-death, with the exception of the sleeping with your baby, which isnt a risk as long as the baby isnt under the covers, and the parents havent been drinking or using drugs, In fact there is evidence that a breastfeeding mother sleeping with her baby is more in tune with any changes in temperature or breathing patterns(even when asleep) than a baby in a cot in a separate room. next best thing is to have the cot or moses basket next to the bed for the first 6 months.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Cot Death - Kissing Babies on the Lips
    Originally posted by DiamondGeezer
    Your Boss can't speak for every Doctor on the planet and she doesn't know everything there is to know.

    The fact she doesn't even seem to consider the possibility would worry me if she was my Docor. .. an open mind can work wonders.

    Yes but you can't believe every hairbrain theory. She did actually point out that at a general medical convention the whole idea was laughed at. This theory also predates the 2000 report that you have spent your time searching for. This report built on previous suggestions.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    People laughed when someone suggested the world wasn't flat but Ball shaped!! or that one day people would fly.

    You can pass on glandular fever by kissing, Cold Sores - probably SARS - why not other things?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Id have more faith in a new doctor to be honest rather than a doctor of 30 yrs.
    Medicine is changing so fast these days so I dont think the older doctors are as clued up as newly quallified docs.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by DiamondGeezer
    You can pass on glandular fever by kissing, Cold Sores - probably SARS - why not other things?

    The point I was making was that if the bacteria that may/may not be connected to cot death are in saliva, and are passed on through saliva, a gentle kiss on a baby's lips isn't going to mean contact between parent's/baby's saliva. I can see where the connection is, especially when sucking dummys/bottles, but a gentle kiss on a baby's lips surely couldn't pass on enough bacteria to make any significant difference?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Lil Laura
    The point I was making was that if the bacteria that may/may not be connected to cot death are in saliva, and are passed on through saliva, a gentle kiss on a baby's lips isn't going to mean contact between parent's/baby's saliva. I can see where the connection is, especially when sucking dummys/bottles, but a gentle kiss on a baby's lips surely couldn't pass on enough bacteria to make any significant difference?


    A lot of people lick their lips, so could get saliva on their lips that way. Also Bacteria is so small and light it can float in the air.

    When you go up to someone with bad breath you're not touching them and yet you can smell their bad breath - because the bad breath molecules are travelling from their mouth through the air and up your nostrils.

    So without even getting close enough to kiss you are already being bombarded with millions of their molecules.

    In Cancer all it takes is a single cell in the entire body to screw up and start multiplying into cancer.

    The way the cold virus spreads is through the air - it causes someone to sneeze in order to propel it'self out into the world to find new pople to infect.

    The mouth has more bacteria then anywhere else in the body. And is the perfect enterance and exit for viruses to spread. That's why all those people in China were wearing masks to protect themselves from SARS.

    All I'm suggesting is people keep and open mind about these things. I'd rather know about theories like this and make up my own mind then not know at all.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If that's the case, then why is kissing a baby on the lips any more harmful than talking to them when they're in your arms?

    I'm not arguing with you, and I'm not saying that the report is wrong, or anything like that. I just think it's interesting how they use kissing a baby on the lips as the main example, when there are probably thousands of ways the same thing could happen - it's almost putting a 'kiss of death' status on it.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think taking a baby out of an oxygen tent and touching it increases the risk of germs which could be catastrophic!!!
    I think we need to be realistic here, theres no way you can prevent a child from being exposed to its mothers germs, A healthy baby would have a certain amount of immunity anyway from breastmilk, which is full of antibodies. unfortunatly some babies will unfortunatly die, its awful but true, and although you can lessen the risk in some ways, I think this is just one more way of trying to blame the mother.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by rainbow brite
    I think this is just one more way of trying to blame the mother.

    Especially since they already blame themselves !!

    Its like what did I do wrong?
    What if when he had been crying if Id got up and checked him instead of just seeing if he went back to sleep? (which he did do)
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I heard the researcher who conducted this research on Radio Four after it was released.
    He was very annoyed about the press coverage that it got.

    The point of the research was that cot death COULD be caused by bacteria, but he's not sure. The press pushed him really hard and he admited that there was a theoretical risk (though totaly unproven and in his opinion very very very unlikely) that it could be spread by the mothers kiss.

    The next days headline was something like "Mothers kiss of death"
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by BeckyBoo
    Id have more faith in a new doctor to be honest rather than a doctor of 30 yrs.
    Medicine is changing so fast these days so I dont think the older doctors are as clued up as newly quallified docs.
    I think this is really harsh. To be honest I would actually trust an older doctor more, because they do keep up with developments but they are more experienced.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by BumbleBee
    I think this is really harsh. To be honest I would actually trust an older doctor more, because they do keep up with developments but they are more experienced.

    Medicine is changing so fast so the newer qualified doctors are more in touch with what new medicines work better.
    If I go and see a doctor depending on what is wrong with me will determine which doctor I go to see. I just personally feel that older doctors are kind of set in their ways and some do not seem to like change.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The reason they always change their minds is because of the increasing technology they now think that is gene related so if one child suffers another is likely to also suffer. It is difficult to prove as they are so young and small!

    Sorry to hear that Beckyboo:) :(
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    2 in every thousand babies die from "cot death" ...people have run millions and millions of stats and documented everything about it ...but the thing is ..after so long the doctors havent found a pattern so they start picking things out that have happened a few more times than the rest ..its all guess's mate
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