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If/when the coalition wins the war.....
Former Member
Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
what exactly should replace the Saddam Ba'ath regime?
Could a liberal democracy be successful in Iraq?
Could a liberal democracy be successful in Iraq?
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The concept is just too alien for the iraqi people. Theyve been ruled by military dictatorship for 30 years, it wouldnt be an easy transition, even if they wanted to make it..
Its up to them really..If they want to start toward democracy we will help them do so..If they want to go back to tribal rule of somekind, they are welcome to..Its all down to them..
Democracy..Not for a good few years and even then, it will have to be enforced on a lot of people in the country which is not a good thing.
Balddo I am not sure why you think that some kind of cultural factors would prevent a successful democracy. Wasn't Iraq a democracy for a while in the 60's?
I also would not want to use the word that 'they' the Iraqis will have any unanimous oppinion on what kind of state, that is the point of democracy but also its contradiction.......
It's going to be done the way it was done in Afghanistan, Germany and Japan. First the military takes over...then the real people in Iraq form a democracy that includes all groups.
Iraq is going to need the right constitution.
But surely this can't be imposed by the US, so it is voted for, but that itself is prone to the biaases of majority decision.
A problem exists here...........
And you can in no way compare either Iraq or Afghanistan to the defeated nations of WWII. Different time, different political situations entirely.
The Ba'ath party won't be allowed to run for office. Who d'you think will be running the elections? The UN? It'll be the US and only US approved parties will be allowed to stand.
I know Aladdin. It does make me happy that girls are studying again.
pnj> once again, only in Kabul and that represents a tiny fraction of the country's female population.
I know. But I'll take it as happy news.:)
Imagine an Afghanistan where women can recieve medical treatment and go to school. Imagine an Afghanistan where religious nuts don't run the place. America has a commitment to help Afghanistan achieve its full potential in the family of nations.
I don't suppose you want the Taliban back, do you?
The press has been reporting all sorts of claims and they have no supporting evidence. Bush never said the war would be over quickly. We shall be there for as long as it takes.
Imagine trying to stop terrorism and murder in Iraq. Imagine offering democracy to an oppressed people. Imagine trying to prevent the proliferation of chems and biologics.
I have come to the conclusion that liberalism as presently defined and practiced is not a political persuasion, it is a form of mental illness.:) :yes: :wave:
The miscomprehension by the war advocates of the global rift and alienation that is being systematically exacerbated in Bush's crusade of acquisition is astounding. The consequences of our attempts to remake the world in our image, by hook or by tomahawk missile, are mounting, and when they catch up to us, the first casualty will be the naivete with which the nation followed these control lords so unquestioningly.
As for soundbites, Ive heard Bush repeat that mantra repeatedly. Unfortunately what you don't get to hear is the rest of that phrase:
"will be there as long as it takes...
... to take the spoils we came for!" :rolleyes:
Easter European states like Romania and Poland weren't democratic for the decades of Soviet satellite rule. Yet know they are democracies. What is the real difference?
You cannot build legitimate comparisons of 20th Century European nations with the tribal factionalism of the Middle East.
Pakistan is a case where the strong man characteristic of Middle Eastern power plays is also well demonstrated. Musharrof came to power in a coup, which is in keeping with the very nature of what I previously wrote.
Notwithstanding that, perhaps democracy is not in and of itself a complete stranger to the region, but that in no way negates the fact that you cannot "impose" nor "inspire" any credible democracy through foreign invasion and domination.
All told though, as MR. has repeated numerous times, it would be foolish to accept the rhetoric of the Bush camp as to what they intend. A viable democracy in Iraq would threaten the hegemonic control that Washington and Tel Aviv have long awaited the opportunity to establish in the region. The risk that the will of the Iraqis might not include a generous disposition toward the West would be too great to waste all the money and effort.
I also think its more to do with them being arabic than being muslim...I dont think their religion comes into it too much.
The arab nations have always been ruled with an iron fist. Massive history of a totally different type of government and it worked well for them for many years.
Pakistan has the benefit(?) of having a close relationship with and influence from the UK which allowed them to be a lot less harsh than other nations in the region.
Europe was once ruled absolutely by monarchs, which can easily be compared to a modern day military dictatorship..Would it be so easy for us to go back to those days?
You cannot force democracy upon people, they have to want it for themselves.
I do not think any of us are in a position to state as a matter of fact that the people of the middle-eastern nations do not want democracy.....
Its safe to say that most middle eastern citizens dont want a democracy for the simple reason of ignorance. Most of them dont know about the concept of democracy. Oh im sure they want more freedom, they are human like the rest of us, but the democratic system of government is totally unheard of for many.
What some seem unwilling or unable to grasp is that in our Western societies, the progress toward democratic self determination was slow and systematic over hundreds of years of social, cultural, and economic change.
Where fighting was necessary it was conducted by those within who hungered for that change not by bombs or invasions from without.
Now that we in the west have lived for generations under the relative comforts of liberal democracy, it has become increasingly apparent how smug and self righteous many have become in their assumptions of the very nature of the freedoms they enjoy and the exportability of this way of life, and more importantly of thinking, on the back of tomahawk missiles, and militant foreign government overthrows.
Just doesnt work that way folks and the backlash for our presumtpion will be all the worse for our self assuredness on the matter.
I don't remember them ever being given a real choice, either.
Problem with totalitarian regimes/kingdoms is that they don't encourage people to look towards democracy as an option.
Like MoK says, they have never been given the choice, that is the whole point of democracy.......
also i did not think we were frocing democracy anywhere apart from iraq and that is only a back-up motive (to look good for the media) to the true one........
1)I am a fully paid-up member of the liberal party and I can tell you, it is a political stance; The British Lib Dem Party stands for the freedom of the individual, proper PUBLIC services in the PUBLIC sector and the rule of international law.
2) But not by installing a puppet regime, letting in american corporations to run everything and anything (which is, I believe also the plan for Iraq as Rumsfeld recently invited bids from American corps to run Iraq's schools and hospitals after they occupy the country) and not allowing free or fair elections.
3)True but others within the administration gave that impression.
4)I can imagine it but it won't happen if the current administration carries on.
I have come to the conclusion that American nationalism and the corrupt elite nepotists who control it through the media are killing the US and turning it into a global bogeyman. I can only hope and pray that we emerge from the dark age Bush and Blair are trying to drag us into a little older and wiser. Violence does not end violence. It prolongs it.
Ones mans desire is anothers hate.