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Michael Moore

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
I was just wondering if anybody has seen Bowling for Columbine, and if so what they thought of it?

I would quite like to watch it but I was hoping someone could tell me whether it is suitable for children (ie. is it gory?)

Thank you.
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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Excellent and very compelling and enlightening film which I have repeatedly recommended in various threads. Anyone who wants to comprehend why my country is so filled with violence and paranoia and mistrust of the outside world must see this film.

    Its a bit political for little ones but i dont recall it being particularly gorey, generally disturbing though I will say that much.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    A friend of mine recommened it to me a few months back and I made a mental note to watch it but I forgot. The Oscar win prompted me.

    In all honesty, as true to life as gory things are, I dislike them immensely. So I just wanted to make sure it would be ok for me to watch it.

    Thank you Clandestine.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I have seen it and I have to say, I lost a lot of respect for Moore - Roger and Me was a great hard hitting piece of documentary. BFC on the other hand, made some points but I found it a wee too jumbled to follow at times.

    What Moore relied on for this film, unfortuntately was the 'premise' that Americans are a fearful bunch, that private citizens stock up on weapons for any number of reasons, notably that white americans stock up against the possiblity of attack by you guessed it, black folks. This fear element was the primary driver and extended it to our military spending (went to a Lockheed Rocket facility in Littleton CO to underscore this).

    This film was widely hailed by the left wing for its anti gun messages. As a gun owner and a Republican however, I wasn't left with a feeling of dread but felt I was being told things as an American Ive always known - America is a violent place. Moore tried and failed to correlate this to gun ownership being so high among the populace.

    Gory? no not really. Credible? hmm tough one but considering Moore went to the most extreme elements on both sides (ie Marilyn Manson, Terry Nichols' crazy brother and to a Charlton Heston in the throes of Alzheimers) its hard to really and objectively judge the film's worth. Add to the fact that Moore tried to make a point without making a point, it was as said, difficult to follow. If you are looking to learn the viewpoint, by all means see the film but please, as In tell people in my classes, DONT base your opinions on the US and her gun culture soley on the views of Moore and his ilk.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by DevilMan
    DONT base your opinions on the US and her gun culture soley on the views of Moore and his ilk.
    I won't. I already have my views on American gun culture. I have to say I do not think they are racially motivated however!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    thanks for that - note too, Im not trying in any way to sway you to my side (the gun owning side that is) of the fence. Only after years of thought and internal debate did I take the position (which is de facto opposite of Moore's).

    Good luck and happy learning!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by DevilMan
    thanks for that - note too, Im not trying in any way to sway you to my side (the gun owning side that is) of the fence. Only after years of thought and internal debate did I take the position (which is de facto opposite of Moore's).

    Good luck and happy learning!

    Oh I know! In actual fact I have the utmost respect for what you said, because you admitted that you have an opposite view but still found something portraying another view to be informative and worth watching. I am not sure if I could be so open minded. I think if I were to watch a documentary which was pro- something I was against or vice versa that I would get very angry! I admire that and hope I can develop that kind of skill.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    well it wasn't easy - As said, I am very on the pro gun side being a collector and studying to be an instructor of self defense. My motivation was to help a girl I was seeing as she was using the film for her mass media class at Boston College. It was tough to stomach because while I agree that people in the US can be paranoid and even racist, that is not by and large the main motivation for gun ownership.

    But in the interest of knowing all sides of an argument (and admittedly because the girl in question was beautiful) I subjected myself to the viewpoint once again. All in all, I learned more about what the 'other side' was thinking.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Notwithstanding the fact though that no pro-gun person interviewed by Moore could offer any legitimate answer why gun related killing is so much higher in the US than in any other country in the world. Even when per capita gun ownership rates are comparative as Moore shows by taking the viewer on a Canadian leg of his documentary.

    The atmosphere of paranoia of foreign boogeymen and 100 ways you can injure yourself or be killed in the home, etc.. broadcast into people's minds over generations is quite lucidly presented as being the most likely cause.

    I personally see that as the definining problem which leads our nation to more militant foreign policies like we have at present. So basically the problem isnt so much the guns themselves (however much i hate the damn things) but the posture of the nation and its inability to question what it is being fed about what our government's agenda truly is. keep em suspicious of the outsider, suspicious of their neighbours and then convince them they have to kill or be killed and youve got people's minds narrowed sufficiently so they they sign up for the turkey shoot willingly.

    That's the larger principle Moore is aiming to get across and I thought it did it exceptionally well.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    Notwithstanding the fact though that no pro-gun person interviewed by Moore could offer any legitimate answer why gun related killing is so much higher in the US than in any other country in the world. Even when per capita gun ownership rates are comparative as Moore shows by taking the viewer on a Canadian leg of his documentary.

    The atmosphere of paranoia of foreign boogeymen and 100 ways you can injure yourself or be killed in the home, etc.. broadcast into people's minds over generations is quite lucidly presented as being the most likely cause.

    I personally see that as the definining problem which leads our nation to more militant foreign policies like we have at present. So basically the problem isnt so much the guns themselves (however much i hate the damn things) but the posture of the nation and its inability to question what it is being fed about what our government's agenda truly is. keep em suspicious of the outsider, suspicious of their neighbours and then convince them they have to kill or be killed and youve got people's minds narrowed sufficiently so they they sign up for the turkey shoot willingly.

    That's the larger principle Moore is aiming to get across and I thought it did it exceptionally well.


    come on now - he hardly interviewed anyone but extremists on the pro gun side - how could it not look like all of us were nits? I can assure you, had he interviewed the average middle of the road gun owner (as there are more than 40 million of us) the fims tenor would be not only more representative but accurate! Why is gun violence so high? hell, its because more guns are available to more people - throw in black market arms (ie stolen guns) and the violence just escalates.

    paranoia? Hell yes there's paranoia - driven mainly though by the media and pundits - such as MR. Moore - if ever there was a piece of docudrama that heightened paranoia of legitimate gun owners, BFC did it in all frames.

    AS to the bigger picture of the government and its agenda - yes it made that point, but you'd have to admit too, the films approach was all too muddled to capitalize on that part of his thesis.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I thought he made made it with the right blend of seriousness and humour actually.

    Sure he interviewed extremists, but he did interview normal heartland folk as well. Heck he went up to canada and talked to folks in a bar. Hardly all extremists.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I dont know - again I admit I am partial but as far as the middle america folk, I felt he purposely went and scraped the bottom of the barrel of intellect and reasoning.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well you got a fairly large section of the heartland who amount to Jerry Springer fodder.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    Well you got a fairly large section of the heartland who amount to Jerry Springer fodder.

    which is why I dont think interviewing such people is representative or objective
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I saw the movie, knowing nothing about what the film was about or Michael Moore. A friend called me up, told me that she heard it was a documentary about Columbine, and so I said yes.

    I do not regret seeing that movie at all. Though there are some things which annoy me about it.
    He has tried to highlight too many different factors which, make it harder for the viewer to concentrate on his point. Cause suddenly he has a new one.
    Secondly, in the movie Michael Moore displays it as if he is giving both parts a fair chance of explaining their stance. But it's clear that both Heston and the guy connected to McVeigh are both a bit out of their trees.

    As entertainment, comedy and to see the viewing point of his, it's worth a watch.
    Educational, or fact-based it is not.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Have to disagree with you there. Coming from the States I found it to be an illuminating expose of what underlies our penchant for violent means of conflict resolution.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    and I gotta disagree with you - if anything, Moore contributed to the 'paranoia' thesis he was presenting by picking the most out of touch brain dead folk he could get his hands on. Sure its going to look like we have no conflict resolution skills when you talk to the likes of Terry Nichols' brother - heck, interview some Klan / W.A.R. folks, Michigan Militiamen and Black Panthers as well if you're going to prove such an argument.

    My point: a nice try at a documentary but fair, balanced and accurate it was not. Its a long downward fall from Roger and Me
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blunt instruments such as bats and hammers kill more people in the US than do firearms.

    The numbers of people getting killed is skewed by the violence in urban inner city areas. Drugs and gang shooting drive the numbers up!

    Japan which is so safe has a 99% conviction rate for violent crime and a 98% confession rate. Hmmmm! How does that happen? Ask Amnesty International. The UK has seen a decrease in crime once guns were banned!:lol: Why is it that the Swiss and the Norwegians with more guns per capita still have propotionately much less violent crime?

    I live in an area with a very high rate of gun ownership and the incidence of crime with firearms is virtually nil! Hmmmm!

    Gun ownership does not increase the incidence of violence. Attitudes, behavior, and socio-economic conditions determine gun violence. Think people, THINK!;)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I will not debate g*ns :impissed:

    BUT :rolleyes:

    Those causal links you just drew Murph were all over the place, there could be any number of reasons for the trends you described..........
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Toadborg,

    The gun issue has been discussed ad nauseum on this board.:yuck:

    Let us just agree to disagree on this point. I still think Michael Moore is a twit though! ;):D
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Sounds good to me.............

    (I just hate to drop a point that I feel needs to be made:rolleyes: )
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Toadborg,

    Okay here is the site that shows Moore to be a lying twit!

    www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I really can't comment as I haven't seen the film.......
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    On a similer note... Any-one read the book "stupid white men"?

    I thouhgt that was very informative.

    The bigest shock was in the first chapter, where he goes through the process used by G.W. Bush to get into the whitehouse, despite not having a majority vote.
    And without having to wait for the results if the recount in florida.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i luv michael moore and his stuff, but its important to read/watch his work with an open mind, because after all it is just one point of view, no matter how right he may be in most cases

    ive read Stupid White Men and Downsize This! but ive not seen any of his films. i hope to soon tho :)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Oh screw Michael Moore. The United States is such a fun country to live in. If it's so bad here, let him go live in Belgium.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The 'C' strain of pnj is with us today it would seem...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But it is Aladdin. Michael Moore is one of those hateful liberals that wants to take a tragedy and make it like it represents the US. It doesn't.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Would you care to tell us then:

    - What is "a hateful liberal" and why do they deserve your hatred?

    - Why have you chosen Belgium as the country where you would like him to go to?

    - Do you not think America has a big problem with firearms violence and deaths, compared with any other civilised nation?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Actually pnj, its you and those neanderthilic right-wingers like you who exude the most hatred both of those who endeavour to wake our country up to its misbehaviour in the world as well as to the paranoia which fuels that hatred. You inundate yourself with myopic and sanitised reports on the outside world and ignore the breakdown of our own internal civil society whilst waving your flag and pretending that every part of the country is as sedate and untouched as Cape May.

    You have quite some growing up and learning to do. Your dismissal is merely one of the all too common expressions of the apathy and relinquishing of civic duty made by far too many as the nation becomes even more internally polarised.

    Your ridiculous addicton to mentioning Belgium in every other rebuttal is also indicative of your pathetic refusal to recognise the issues at home that will be effecting your not too distant future as well as your woeful inability to address those issues intelligently.

    Moore is spot on about the paranoia which pervades American society and the kind of antagonistic, hate-filled backlash of arrogance and violence (both domestic and international) which that paranoia gives rise to. Nothing whatsoever hateful about sounding a wake up call for the land one loves. Only those who prefer to sit smugly on their self righteous butts and judge everyone else by hypocritical standards they themselves neither respect nor follow would think otherwise.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Al, didnt see your post before i posted. pnj as you should well know is merely a spoiled apathetic surbanite with no clue whatsoever of the growing unrest, poverty, violence, and polarisation eating away at the fabric of the nation outside his sheltered little beachfront world.

    Let him go live in the worst areas of any major city and taste what disenfranchisement, zero opportunity and increasing racial tensions are doing to the country. Then he might snap out of his delusional antagonistic "Mr. Know-It-All" nonsense and actually realise that pretending everything is rosey will only leave his own future stability in even greater doubt.

    Course, if this is the jock and not pnj, then nothing will wake him up. :rolleyes:
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