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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Or even those of Batista (Cuba), Haile Selassie (Ethiopia), Samuel Doe (Liberia), Botha (South Africa), as well as running support for Daniel Arap Moi (Kenya), All of whom we backed and all of whom were brutal and corrupt dictators in their own right).
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Funny that you don't come up with a Communist regime to be admired...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I dont admire Communist regimes Greeny, perhaps thats why.

    Point is you consistently excuse any criminality our own leaders bear in the sorts of crimes against humanity that are now being levelled in the war rhetoric of Bush, devoid of any reference to our own complicity in the messes we now face. Nice and sanitised for an American public largely ignorant of what our own government has been doing in our name for decades (if not centuries).

    Its time for some accountability in Washington if you wish your own arguments on behalf of the irresponsible hawks are to be anything more than utter hypocrisy.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    I dont admire Communist regimes Greeny, perhaps thats why.

    Point is you consistently excuse any criminality our own leaders bear in the sorts of crimes against humanity that are now being levelled in the war rhetoric of Bush, devoid of any reference to our own complicity in the messes we now face. Nice and sanitised for an American public largely ignorant of what our own government has been doing in our name for decades (if not centuries).

    Its time for some accountability in Washington if you wish your own arguments on behalf of the irresponsible hawks are to be anything more than utter hypocrisy.

    No, I don't excuse criminal actions. But I do expect those actions to actually be proved by something more than accusations with no substance to them (as your beloved sources are so inclined to do). You see, I've been to many of the places that you claim the US has "commited crimes" and seen the reality...and it isn't the bullshit that you post.

    The School of the Americas is not a terrorist training camp. It does not teach brutality, torture or murder.

    The United States did not take part in atrocities in El Salvador, nor is the United States responsible for any that occured there (and yes, atrocities occured there...crimes by Salvadorians).

    What warcrimes American troops committed in Vietnam were tried in courts. They were not common acts, entirely the opposite. Those that were committed (and yes, there were incidents) were policed by the US military and tried in a court under the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

    The United States government (including the CIA) did not actively encourage drug trade in Afghanistan, Laos or anywhere else. They did not use the proceeds of such a trade to finance operations.

    It was the North Vietnamese that broke the Geneva Agreements of 1962, and the North Vietnamese who broke the Paris Peace Accords.

    Now, if you want to stick Oliver North's head on a spike, I'll be happy to help. But that is an individual, not the US Government.

    The problem you have is that you cannot tell the difference between assistance and dictating, or the difference between the acts of individuals and the policies of a government. If you give a loan to a friend, do you dictate to him what he must spend it on? And if he does something else with it, what do you do? Sacrifice him?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I too have been to many of the places I have mentioned and I also know that our own leaders were actively funding or providing for training of many of the insurgency groups cited by reviews I have posted here. Ill have to disagree with you vehemently on this especially given the fact that I have posted corroborating analysis to support my criticisms as opposed to your off the cuff denials.

    In the end, I might not have anywhere near the expertise in the military arena as you do, but I know the political arena and those who operate within it and can assure you that those you serve without apparent question have ties to some of the most heinously brutal and corrupt regimes in the past half century. In otherwords, as we so readily accept in legal parlance, those who aid and abet a crime are equally as guilty as accomplices to those crimes.

    What you wish to believe doesnt change that fact, but it does speak volumes about your objectivity in the matter of aknowledging the criminal complicity of numerous administrations' foreign policies including those who currently hold the reigns of power in Washington.

    A continuing tale of the pot calling the kettle black.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    I too have been to many of the places I have mentioned and I also know that our own leaders were actively funding or providing for training of many of the insurgency groups cited by reviews I have posted here. Ill have to disagree with you vehemently on this especially given the fact that I have posted corroborating analysis to support my criticisms as opposed to your off the cuff denials.

    Ever actually conducted or taken part in the military training of indigenous personnel, Clandestine? That is what I do. And have for over 20 years. Here's the simple deal. It's their country. As a trainer/advisor, you can try to get them to see the reasons for the law of land warfare and the like, but you can't enforce it, you can't make them do what you say. You don't have the right or the authority...and trying too hard will just get you dead. Is that aiding and abetting? Bullshit. It's trying your best to do just the opposite. Doesn't mean you are always successful. Given cultural issues, you are often not successful.
    It seems that you would advocate just giving up. Which of course accomplishes even less...except to make sure that places like Rwanda and Somalia continue to decimate their own populations...that places like Vietnam continue to practice genocide against residents of their country.

    No one said it was easy. The course you seem to believe in would ensure that people like Josef Stalin ran the world. Sometimes people who would impose their will by means of force must be met with force. The world is not a nice place. Never has been. All your words don't make a damn bit of difference to a war lord with an AK74. Talking couldn't even convince the 7 year olds that ran "The Army of God" to give it up. Took soldiers to do that.

    Your "analysis" is based on bullshit data, with an obvious bias, so it is no surprise that it is also bullshit.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    LOL. Let's examine the matter of Warlords. Seems we once again have a government who is pretending that arming and backing the Afghani warlords is anything but a maintenance of the status quo of that chaotic land.

    First we back the Taliban and ignore the plight of the civilian population until such time as we can justify an invasion and then in the process we cozy up to tribal leaders who are as much a part of the original problem our leaders claimed to be eliminating.

    And here you are pretending that it is anything but the same old complicity in a new package.

    Ive yet to see any substantiation for the bullshit you shovel so well yourself ol boy.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine

    First we back the Taliban and ignore the plight of the civilian population until such time as we can justify an invasion and then in the process we cozy up to tribal leaders who are as much a part of the original problem our leaders claimed to be eliminating.

    You mean providing humanitarian aid? Your own links...

    LMAO :lol:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    My Grandparents were working class, both my parents were the first and only children to go to university (where they met).

    I was bought up in a comfortable, suburban, middle-class environment but despite my father working at a private school my education has been entirely in the state sector. My mother has always voted labour and my Father votes either Labour or more often Liberal Democrat.

    As with most children my primary school education had strong religious emphasis (regular prayers and hymns etc.). Although my family and few people we knew were church goers I was sent to a bible class but any kind of organised religion has never appealed to me.

    This though is not to say that I have no belief in spiritual or matters of the soul I simply have a healthy repellance of organised religion and many of the beliefs of the major denonminations.

    I have not travelled widely (though I hope to) but I read both newspapers, books and internet sources avidly and it is this that has shaped much of my opiion along with discussion and debate with those I know and on here.

    I hope I will never be stuck in my beliefs or subscribe to any dogma as I find this to be intellectually unhealthy.

    Although my parents have a Labour cvoting tradition I cannot see myself voting for them in the forseeable future as new labour has betrayed too many of Labour's ideals..........
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