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French surrender REAL early...

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
from a canadian paper"

Europe's axis of appeasement

Daniel Pipes
National Post
Tuesday, January 28, 2003

Leading French politicians made some remarkably defeatist pronouncements last week.

Rejecting any U.S. military action against Iraq, President Jacques Chirac said that "War is always the admission of defeat, and is always the worst of solutions. And hence everything must be done to avoid it." Foreign Minister Dominique de Villepin put it more emphatically: "Nothing justifies envisaging military action." To all this, the German Chancellor beamed with approval.

In response, U.S. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld dismissed France and Germany as "old Europe." The New York Post blasted them as an "Axis of Weasels." Cartoonist Tony Auth dubbed them the "Axis of Annoyance."

An even better name would be "Axis of Appeasement."

"Appeasement" may sound like an insult but it is a serious policy with a long history and an enduring appeal highly relevant to today's circumstances. Yale historian Paul Kennedy defines it as a way of settling quarrels "by admitting and satisfying grievances through rational negotiation and compromise, thereby avoiding the resort to an armed conflict which would be expensive, bloody and possibly very dangerous."

The British Empire relied heavily on appeasement from the 1860s on, with good results -- avoiding costly colonial conflicts while preserving the international status quo. To a lesser extent, other European governments also adopted this policy.

Then came 1914, when in a fit of delirium nearly all Europe abandoned appeasement and rushed into the First World War with what Yale historian Peter Gay calls "a fervor bordering on a religious experience." A century had passed since the continent had experienced the miseries of war, and their memory had vanished. Worse, thinkers such as the German Friedrich Nietzsche developed theories glorifying war.

Four years (1914-18) of hell, especially in the trenches of northern France, then prompted immense guilt about the jubilation of 1914. A new consensus emerged: Never again would Europeans rush into war.

Appeasement looked better than ever. And so, as Adolf Hitler threatened in the 1930s, British and French leaders tried to buy him off. Of course, what worked in colonial wars had utterly disastrous results when dealing with an enemy like the Nazis. This led to the policy of buying off totalitarian opponents being discredited through the Cold War; the Europeans, it appeared, had learned a lesson they would never forget.

But forget they did, soon after the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991.

In a brilliant Weekly Standard essay, Yale's David Gelernter recently explained how this happened. The power of appeasement was temporarily hidden by the Second World War and the Cold War, but with the passage of time, "the effects of the Second World War are vanishing while the effects of the First endure." That's because the First World War is far more comprehensible than the Second, which is "too big for the mind to grasp." Politically and spiritually, it feels increasingly as though the Second World War never took place.

In fact, Gelernter argues, "it's the 1920s all over again," with that era's visceral loathing of war and readiness to appease totalitarian dictators (think of North Korea, Iraq, Syria, Zimbabwe, and others).

He finds today's Europe "amazingly" similar to that of the 1920s in other ways too: "its love of self-determination and loathing of imperialism and war, its liberal Germany, shrunken Russia, and map of Europe crammed with small states, with America's indifference to Europe and Europe's disdain for America, with Europe's casual, endemic anti-Semitism, her politically, financially, and masochistically rewarding fascination with Muslim states who despise her, and her undertone of self-hatred and guilt."

Gelernter proposes that 1920s-style self-hatred is now "a dominant force in Europe." And appeasement fits this mood perfectly, having grown over the decades into a worldview "that teaches the blood-guilt of Western man, the moral bankruptcy of the West, and the outrageousness of Western civilization's attempting to impose its values on anyone else."

Which brings us back to the unwillingness of "old Europe" to confront Saddam Hussein. The Second World War's lesson (strike before an aggressive tyrant builds his power) has lost out to the 1920s attitude ("nothing justifies envisaging military action").

This self-hating weakness will lead again to disaster, no less than it did leading up to the Second World War. The United States finds itself having to lead the democracies away from the lure of appeasement. Iraq is a good place to start.

Daniel Pipes is director of the Middle East Forum and author of Militant Islam Reaches America (W.W. Norton). © Copyright 2003 National Post

http://www.nationalpost.com/comment...13-DAB805B5FCAF

i wonder if the french are going to start teaching their troops to goosestep? i mean, to save time...

Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    This is really good information. You might want to ask a moderator to put it in Politics where more people will read it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Re: French surrender REAL early...
    Originally posted by hardcorps1775

    In fact, Gelernter argues, "it's the 1920s all over again," with that era's visceral loathing of war and readiness to appease totalitarian dictators (think of North Korea, Iraq, Syria, Zimbabwe, and others).

    What a load of crap! Most world leaders (with the exception of The Bush's) think with brains not bullets.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by pnjsurferpoet
    This is really good information. You might want to ask a moderator to put it in Politics where more people will read it.
    thanks, done.

    what the hell is there to think about??? we were attacked, 3,000+ innocent lives were snuffed out in a matter of minutes (a big chunk of them british, by the way). sadaam hussein is a butcher, he has used chemical weapons before, he is seeking nuclear technology, he is hip deep up al qaeda's ass, he hates the west. does this not constitute a threat? can you not envision him giving al qaeda (or anyone else) bio/chem weapons to use against western targets? you know, we fought a war against him a few years ago, right? we also still own kurdish north and the shiite south. can you imagine that he's not too happy about that? that he might want to do something about that?

    or do you think that if you ignore the problem it will go away or he'll have an epiphany and throw open his arms and say he was wrong, we're a buncha great guys and come on down for some shishkabob?

    that's europes problem, they think with their brains but no balls.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    funny how saddam has never threatened the west. has done evrything we asked of him when we wanted him to go to war with iran... when america decided iran was the number one evil.
    saddam has never been connected to international terrorism. he also hates islamic extremism and would never alow it in iraq.
    saddam would love nothing more than to be trading with the world as he once did, selling oil and building palaces and highways. he might be a bastard but theres plenty of them about.
    funny how anyone who dares disagree with america on moral or economic grounds become cowards isn't it?
    the latest individual to oppose bush and his cronies in this evil war is they're very own gulf war hero and leader...general stormin norman. he knows more about war and iraq thean the entire bush team. how embarresing for bush aye.
    to get one man... saddam, they are going to kill thousands upon thousands of inocent people. when the water electricity and sewage is taken out they will kill thousands more. this is the american way. if they have to kill a million to get one man... thats what they'll do. all hail america. no wonder a large percentage of the worlds population see america as the great satan.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Re: Re: French surrender REAL early...
    Originally posted by Cheezie Grin
    What a load of crap! Most world leaders (with the exception of The Bush's) think with brains not bullets.

    :lol:

    Do you think that you get to be a totalitarian dictator like Saddam without the bullets then?

    Get real.

    We closed our eyes and tried to negotiate in the 30s and millions died. Chattering classes condemned Winston Churchill at the time. Then Hitler proved him right.

    Who did we turn to then?

    Who recently got voted Top Brit?

    Now I'm not suggesting that Saddam is Hitler reincarnate, or the Bush and Blair could hold a candle to Churchill, but when you have an overly aggressive dictator who reneges on every diplomatic deal he makes, there is only one option left.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by morrocan roll
    funny how saddam has never threatened the west. has done evrything we asked of him when we wanted him to go to war with iran... when america decided iran was the number one evil.
    saddam has never been connected to international terrorism. he also hates islamic extremism and would never alow it in iraq.
    saddam would love nothing more than to be trading with the world as he once did, selling oil and building palaces and highways. he might be a bastard but theres plenty of them about.
    funny how anyone who dares disagree with america on moral or economic grounds become cowards isn't it?
    the latest individual to oppose bush and his cronies in this evil war is they're very own gulf war hero and leader...general stormin norman. he knows more about war and iraq thean the entire bush team. how embarresing for bush aye.
    to get one man... saddam, they are going to kill thousands upon thousands of inocent people. when the water electricity and sewage is taken out they will kill thousands more. this is the american way. if they have to kill a million to get one man... thats what they'll do. all hail america. no wonder a large percentage of the worlds population see america as the great satan.
    who the fuck says hussein's a coward? he's tough as woodpecker lips. unfortunately, that was then, this is now. hussein was a valuable foil for the world against iranian extremism but he fucked up when he annexed kuwait (whether or not he thought it was ok with us). we fought a war, he lost, and now we have a crazy bedouin bandit chief on our hands who isn't going to roll over and play dead AND who has access to some nasty shit he's already shown a willingness to use!

    so he doesn't like fundamentalists, that doesn't make him a good guy, does it? he's a threat now and will be an even bigger one later on if we don't do anything about it. i don't think kissing and making up is going to work now.

    too bad you don't understand anything about the military (ours anyway). you would know how ridiculously far we go to minimize civilian casualties. and what we destroy we usually build back better than the original. do you know any middle easterners? i know a bunch. they're worried about what will happen when sadaam is gone (a big vacuum) but they all say the happiest people in the region will be the iraqis themselves.

    i guess we'll just have to wait and see how it plays out.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by hardcorps1775

    i guess we'll just have to wait and see how it plays out.
    bet ya it doesn't play out the way your hoping!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    pray, do tell. how do i hope it plays out and how do you think it will play out?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I agree with hardcorps and MOK. Even if he didn't have the chemical and biological warfare capabilties, we can't let a nut take over a strategic part of the world.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    moroc, how i hope it plays out is that sadaam relents, he and george kiss and make up on the white house lawn, we go in and rebuild iraq, sadaam gradually allows secular democracy which spreads all over the mid east (incl israel...:p ) and we all live happily ever after pounding the shit out of iran.

    how it's really gonna play out? we go in and sadaam goes out. we occupy iraq and try to form a democratic system without impacting too much on the population and end up screwing it up like we're doing in afghanistan...

    alternative (really negative alternative):
    gw wimps out (he is after all the spawn of a ball-less sire) and we launch a few cruise missiles and we return to the status quo until something really bad happens and we start this shit all over again...:crazyeyes

    how do you hope it plays out, other than russia siding with iraq and a sudden hail of nukes turning us into a glass-covered parking lot?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    hardcorps, just wondered if you saw any irony in your avatar vs your politics? :rolleyes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    no, i like el che, he was a revolutionary for hire, an adventurer.

    besides, politics ain't got much to do with this. it's eye for an eye, payback time, combined with eliminating a serious threat to thousands of innocent people. shit, even el barbudo, old fidel himself, condemned the actions of 9/11 and this is all just an extension to me.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by hardcorps1775
    no, i like el che, he was a revolutionary for hire, an adventurer.

    besides, politics ain't got much to do with this. it's eye for an eye, payback time, combined with eliminating a serious threat to thousands of innocent people. shit, even el barbudo, old fidel himself, condemned the actions of 9/11 and this is all just an extension to me.

    Payback for what? :confused: As I recall the USA won Gulf War I :confused:

    A revolutionary for hire? Do you know much about him?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by hardcorps1775
    moroc, how i hope it plays out is that sadaam relents, he and george kiss and make up on the white house lawn, QUOTE]
    pmsl hardcore. that outcome is the one i was hoping for!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Since when did they join the Politics forum and Anything goes together :confused:

    ah well I spose its all a loada crap aint it :p:D;)
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