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Comments
Of course... I already knew the answer.
That is the reality of combat.
Only assholes have 20/20 hindsight. And those who hesitate?
Become KIA statistics...
Well, the idiocy is amazing.
Let's start simply. There is no such thing as infrared goggles.
There are various Night Vision devices, both passive (light enhancing) and infrared (FLIR). Neither is used by most allied pilots. The only pilots likely to use passive goggles are helo pilots. The only fixed wing aerial platform using FLIR is the AC130.
Some troops use the IR reflective strips (they aren't IR strips, they don't create light). They are very effective when you are illuminated with an IR searchlight. They are not foolproof, nor do they show up everytime even when viewed through FLIR systems (I should know, I've used them to make sure an AC130 clearly had all my people identified prior to sending rounds down around us).
Prove you wrong? You've made a comment about every allied pilot and every allied soldier.
I'm one of those soldiers. I don't use an IR strip.
Quite overwhelms ones ability to suspend disbelief, doesn't it? :rolleyes:
Missed that post, Mr Greenhat. Thanks for covering 6.
Wow. :eek: 2 committees have found them quilty. I am simply over-fucking-whelmed. :rolleyes: That two "committees" have made a judgement sans all pertinent intel, well... that is really a prima facie case. :rolleyes:
When the pilots have stood court martial, I might then grant some credence to the oppositions perspective from ignorance (presuming that the pilots are actually convicted of anything). Until that time, I do not have an informed opinion. As previously stated how many times?
Perhaps Prufrock and Whowhere could share with us a perspective concerning ANYTHING they might know, persuming that they know anything about ANYTHING... :rolleyes:
You wanna yell, fine I can yell, the military taught me best!
I CAN SIT HERE AND FLIP THROUGH ARTICLES GALORE, PARTICULARY THE ARMY TIMES AND SHOW YOU PICTURES OF TROOPS ON THE FRONT LINES AND THEY DON'T HAVE INFRARED MARKERS ON THEIR KEVLARS.
YOU THINK I'M JOKING OR THAT I DON'T KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT? I KNOW WHAT THEY LOOK LIKE BECAUSE I OWN ONE!!!
And once more, you need to learn to read the whole context of a post and not just pick and choose and twist words around. I never once said that it was good or bad what those pilots did.
Don't ever try to tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about. I serve my country and I wear the uniform, I better sure as hell know what I'm talking about.
You have no right to babble about something you don't now about. I'm sick of keyboard kommandos sitting around me telling me that I have no right to shoot when shot at. How the hell do you know unless you have been there? MacKenzie is right, war is hell and you have to be able to make quick decisions, or the only thing you will be doing is taking a dirt nap. I will consider anyone that tells me otherwise to be half-intelligent because they clearly have not taken the time to sit down and think what war consists of, or peacekeeping, or homefront time even consists of. You cannot possibly begin to tell me what serving in the military is like unless you have been there and done that. I don't care what you've read, I don't care what people have told you. It makes no difference to me because it means nothing. Words fade with time and stories get changed with time. The only experience is to be doing the real thing.
As far as NVG goes, Whowhere? And for those that aren't military, those are night vision goggles, the proper and military term to use, you just don't get it. Anyone can get a hold of those, enemy or allied, and from what I can see, they don't wear strips on their kevlars so they can give away who they are. Bad tactics and bad thinking.
And once again, you think its easy to see in NVG's? You can barely drive in them let alone fly!! You need a battle buddy to tell you whats in front of you just to drive and you think they are going to send pilots without help into the sky with NVG's on?!
Tell me again where you served? Cause I still have yet to see you say anything that tells me different.
You just touched on how I was injured. I was wearing NVGs when I drove off a 14 foot cliff. NVG don't have depth of field. What looked like a road that gently slopped downward actually dropped off 14 feet. There are definite shortcomings to NVGs!
Or is that rule not applicable to armed forces?
And exactly how long would YOU tolerate being told by those who are clueless how to do YOUR job? :rolleyes:
Do you believe that I could simply step in and do YOUR job, better than you? Why should everyone believe that they could step in and run the military in a better manner than it functions now.
Owning a soccer ball does not necessarily mean that you are the next Pele...
We're not saying the pilots should not be responsible for their actions. We are saying that it is the responsibility of an Article 32 investigation and, if necessary, a Court-Martial to set what those actions were and if they are in fact ones that deserve punishment. They are not the responsibility of the posters of this board, and especially not of those who know absolutely nothing about military affairs or capabilities.
No, not at all; I'm not talking about the mechanics but the morality.
However - and it pains me to admit it! -I think, on balance, that I'd concede some of what you've said. You're entirely right that truthfully none of us should be speculating about this until a court-martial is completed, because we simply can't possibly know enough. You're also probably right that in this specific instance - not as a general rule - your specialist knowledge does render you more authoritative because the debate is more about knowledge of facts than it is about principles. (Actually, I think a more interesting question, one linked to a recent train crash here which was caused by a driver falling asleep at the wheel who was subsequently sent to jail, is whether or not there's any point or compassion in punishing people for things where the guilt they will feel will be so naturally overwhelming anyway. )
So - I was wrong. Sorry... try not to gloat too much!;)
Happens all the time :rolleyes: I work in the public sector, remember
But I still have an opnion on how football should be played...
Not one poster here has condemned any pilot to punishment of any kind. All people have done is state that in their opinion they believe that the pilots were negligent, based on the information they have.
But then, that's what opinions are based on, aren't they?
Really?
Accepted.
btw ~ ain't nuthin' ta gloat over.
The wannabes and the edu-ma-cated....
Did you ever stop to consider that we who have been there, done that, have not said anything towards punishment, cause we just know?
Since when were you judge, jury, and executioner?
We didn't have such things when I was in the service...so I can't speak from personal 'combat' experience...however, I have tried them in civilian life and find them to be mostly a useful toy.
The pilots in this thread made a decision based on restraints that they had to follow...and made a mistake. It happens in combat...it's even been said that Americans shoot everybody, even other Americans...some truth there too. But these are acts that come out of the heat of combat and rarely if ever deserve punishment and in the case of the pilots I'm betting that little more will come of the matter...hopefully no letters of repremand which would end careers of men trained to use VERY expensive equipment...men who are still in short supply.
All you have to do is watch how people drive automobiles to realize how easily such mistakes are made.
Er....perhaps you misunderstood me...
As a result of all comments on this thread, what punishment will befall the pilots?
Bugger all.
All people have done is express opinions, the power to act resides with the correct court - in this case a Court Martial. I haven't seen any suggestion that the proper form of hearing shouldn't take place, only that [with the evidence available] some people here believe that the pilots have a case to answer...
The words mountain and molehill spring to mind. You and Greenhat are always telling us that you protect our freedom, and yet when the use of that freedom is in the form of an opinion which disagrees with your own, you suggest that people (notably Whowhere) to shut up becuase he knows nothing. Well I'm sorry. You should know that freedom means just that - people are free to be ignorant or stupid, to have lame opinions if they want to. To deride them for exercising their freedom actually makes you sound like a bar room bully...a control freak - as in you are only allowed the opinion which I let you have.
Justice will follow in this case, as is right, but people will always form opinions on what they read...and there is nothing wrong with voicing those opinions. thats what freedom of speech is supposed to be about.
We don't suggest that people don't have a right to opinions.
We do suggest, nay shout, that opinions based on a lack of knowledge, ignorance are a waste of space and we are happy to illustrate how stupid such opinions are. After all, we have that right as well.
I have opinions on lots of issues and things. I'm not stupid enough to think that my opinion is of any consequence in areas that I have no expertise, knowledge or experience, nor am I arrogant enough to post opinions in those areas. Instead I read the posts, evaluate who does have knowledge, expertise and experience and learn from them.
As far as I have been taught, freedom is a 2 way street, which means that I have ALSO the freedom to confront those who are so pathetically stupid because their head is irretrievably shoved ALL the way up their arrogant self-possessed ass.
Check back through the thread and witness the usage of the word PUNISHMENT. Not "trial", not "court martial", but PUNISHMENT... :rolleyes:
OO-fucking-RAH!!!
Perhaps, MoK, it is time for my to address YOUR medical specialty, and post "head up ass" "opinions" that YOU are an incompetent and inept bungler?
I do not denigrate YOU within your specialty, as it is out of my experience and expertise, just as OURS is FAR removed from yours... I do not post suppositions from ignorance. We expect a comparable measure of respect.
No, you are quite right you haven't expressed it in such terms. Athough, you have suggested that people shouldn't express their opinions, because they are ignorant.
What this means in effect is that only the pilots should have an opinion. Everything else is conjecture, including what you have said. You don't know what pressure, if any, the pilot was under. Your appraoch is the direct opposite of Whowhere's. You are defending them based on your experience. And how often have your flown in combat?
I'm not attempting to denegrate your experience, because I know you have combat experience, but it is as a ground troop not as a pilot.
Let's be honest. Nothing we say here, on this site, is of any consequence. The only place where these comments will be of consequence is a Court Martial.
For the record, I would be more concerned about the [apparent] lack of briefing on the Canadian training, than the fact that the pilots reacted to [again apparent] ground fire aimed at them.
True. Still no one has suggested that no trial take place though. Just that they anticipate that punishment should follow, based on the evidence before them.
This is no different to any other judgment made here...
Feel free, its always open season on the Health Service
Just for the record though, I haven't comdemned the pilots. I've only commented (until the comment above) on the discussion here.
Not my style to comment upon that which I am ignorant AND inexperienced...
You need to reread my posts. I haven't defended the pilots at all. Only pointed out that WhoWhere is fecking clueless.
Hands up. You got me there, indeed you haven't. Your suggestion was that they should face trial.
Apologies for misrepresenting you.
We have found an issue to agree upon. Now, when we can bring "What?Me worry?" into that fold of understanding, we might have a moment of peaceful discourse.
Not pointing the finger at anyone but can we cut the insults?
Not just on this thread but ALL threads.
:mad: :mad: