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Scottish independence referendum: 1 year to go

JamesJames Posts: 1,706 Community Manager
Flag-Pins-Scotland-Great-Britain.jpg

So in exactly one year, Scots will be voting on whether to break away from the UK and make Scotland an independent country. See the BBC article here.

What do you think about this issue? Would Scotland be better off independent? Would/will you vote yes or no?

Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Scotland, and Alex Salmond are seriously naïve if they think they can dictate any terms of independence. Keep the pound, free movement of travel for non-UK citizens across the border, ownership of all the North Sea oil?
    The last one especially, Scotland are vastly over-inflating the value of that oil, and massively over-estimating their ability to gain control of it from a country that will still remain vastly economically, politically and militarily superior to it.

    I'm all for keeping the nation together, but if they want to go that badly, let them. The billions of pounds in subsidies they get that prop them up can go towards something useful.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Whowhere wrote: »
    Scotland, and Alex Salmond are seriously naïve if they think they can dictate any terms of independence. Keep the pound, free movement of travel for non-UK citizens across the border, ownership of all the North Sea oil?
    The last one especially, Scotland are vastly over-inflating the value of that oil, and massively over-estimating their ability to gain control of it from a country that will still remain vastly economically, politically and militarily superior to it.

    I'm all for keeping the nation together, but if they want to go that badly, let them. The billions of pounds in subsidies they get that prop them up can go towards something useful.

    I'll reply to this properly when I'm not on my phone but what an absurdly arrogant and bullying tone to take.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Infinite. wrote: »
    I'll reply to this properly when I'm not on my phone but what an absurdly arrogant and bullying tone to take.

    I can't wait.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Whowhere wrote: »
    I can't wait.

    Well, if you're going to be a cunt about it, I'll do it on my phone.

    There is no debating terms of independence. What is up for debate are how an independent Scotland will interact with the world and how the country's current status will change. Alex Salmond is setting out how he sees Scotland. There's no dictating of anything, except in the bizarrely aggressive slant you're putting on things.

    Why wouldn't we own the oil that's under Scottish territory? Just because a completely new classification was invented in the 70s so that Westminster could get its grubby mitts on the oil doesn't mean they can' dictate (there's that word again) how it will be used. Your 'we're bigger than you so we'll take it if we want' is hilariously juvenile.

    As for the subsidy, well the creative accounting that goes into claiming that money spent on the behalf of Scotland not by Scotland, the creative claims of ownership on the oil...it's nowhere near as clear cut as you imply.

    There are a lot of thing up in the air and there is so much that needs to be thrashed out. I really don't understand why the default state on this board for independence threads is for English people to get angry.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Infinite. wrote: »
    Well, if you're going to be a cunt about it, I'll do it on my phone.

    There is no debating terms of independence. What is up for debate are how an independent Scotland will interact with the world and how the country's current status will change. Alex Salmond is setting out how he sees Scotland. There's no dictating of anything, except in the bizarrely aggressive slant you're putting on things.

    Either he is trying to dictate, or he is living in some incredible dream world where he thinks Scotland can just spring into being an independent nation but with all the benefits it still enjoys.
    If you want to go it alone, then fine. We get angry about it because of the above. Alone, means alone. You lose the pound, you lose the right to enter the UK without a passport/visa, you lose the right to be in the EU, you lose the right to being in NATO, being in the UN, you lose your military defence (all those tanks, soldiers, ships and jets belong to the UK), you lose access to the myriad of different organisations that nobody thinks twice about, think NHS and DVLA for a start.
    Salmond may think Scotland ought to keep those things, but as I said. Naïve.
    As for the oil, which country paid for the infrastructure, where do the workers come from, which country owns the companies responsible for extracting, processing and refining it, because it isn't Scotland. So you're right, it isn't clear cut. My "we're bigger so we get what we want" argument may be juvenile, but it's the truth because in a future of peak oil, power cuts and £5 a litre petrol, do you really think we'll sit back and let Scotland keep it? You say Scottish territory, but if China can claim the continental shelf hundreds of miles out into the ocean, who's going to stop us doing the same?

    At the moment, Scotland is a big player in the international community because it is part of the UK. The UK represents the interests of every citizen, be they English, Scottish, Welsh or from Northern Ireland. If you leave the UK you go from being a player on the international stage, to being nobody. Salmond keeps going on about fucking Denmark and Luxemborg. Who gives a fuck about Denmark and Luxemborg? They're the playground equivalent of your little brother who is waiting in the car whilst you get dropped off by your mum.

    There are a lot of thing up in the air and there is so much that needs to be thrashed out. I really don't understand why the default state on this board for independence threads is for English people to get angry.

    You want the honest truth? We want to keep the UK whole, but if you're going to let people like Salmond stir up shit about how much better you're all going to be without us, why would we want you to stay?

    And just something else to point out, I am half Scottish before you get any ideas that I've got some vendetta against the place.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    A couple of reasons spring to mind as to why the debate gets testy: tacit in the independence movement is the notion that Scotland gets gypped as part of the union - it may well do, I dunno; there's also a streak of people (myself included) that are wary of, and sensitive to, nationalism.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Whowhere wrote: »
    Alone, means alone.

    Independence means a country that self governs. It doesn't mean that it immediately adopts complete isolation. You seem to expect Scotland to completely severe all ties on the 19th of September, should the Yes vote win. This will be a long, long divorce with give and take on both sides. Yeah, he's arguing for the best possibly scenario. He has to. It doesn't mean that there's not going to be compromise.
    Whowhere wrote: »
    You lose the pound

    The Bank of Scotland was printing pound sterling a decade before the union. But hey, if there's a new currency, there's a new currency. Maybe the Euro.
    Whowhere wrote: »
    you lose the right to enter the UK without a passport/visa

    Surely it would be the same as the Republic of Ireland?
    Whowhere wrote: »
    you lose the right to be in the EU

    Nope. EU advisors have already said that Scotland would be part of the EU. The only issue is that they would carry over the same opt ins and outs as the UK. There are 6 or 7 countries smaller than Scotland in the EU.
    Whowhere wrote: »
    you lose the right to being in NATO

    Alex Salmond has repeatedly said that he would be against NATO membership
    Whowhere wrote: »
    being in the UN

    Why on earth would we not be in the UN? Or are you talking about the security council? Cos the last few weeks haven't exactly shown that up in the best light.
    Whowhere wrote: »
    you lose your military defence (all those tanks, soldiers, ships and jets belong to the UK)

    There are Scottish regiments like the Dragoon Guards. We would need a much smaller army than the UK. Also, we have trident...we can nuke some motherfuckers.
    Whowhere wrote: »
    you lose access to the myriad of different organisations that nobody thinks twice about, think NHS and DVLA for a start.

    Healthcare was devolved in 1999 and NHS Scotland has been a separate organisation since the 1940s. Nicola Sturgeon is on the record as having said that, for things like the DVLA, there will be mature chats to reach and agreement with the UK. So they have been thought about.
    Whowhere wrote: »
    As for the oil, which country paid for the infrastructure, where do the workers come from, which country owns the companies responsible for extracting, processing and refining it, because it isn't Scotland.

    That's because they are privately owned/public companies like BHP Billiton (Australian), Total S.A. (French), Nexen (Canadian), Shell (Dutch), Talisman (Canadian), Chevron (American) or BP. BP of course being an offshoot of Burhma Oil, which was Scottish.
    Whowhere wrote: »
    My "we're bigger so we get what we want" argument may be juvenile, but it's the truth because in a future of peak oil, power cuts and £5 a litre petrol, do you really think we'll sit back and let Scotland keep it? You say Scottish territory, but if China can claim the continental shelf hundreds of miles out into the ocean, who's going to stop us doing the same?

    Oh I dunno, maybe international law? Because if you legitimise invading another sovereign state to claim resources, holy shit will things kick off around the world.
    Whowhere wrote: »
    At the moment, Scotland is a big player in the international community because it is part of the UK. The UK represents the interests of every citizen, be they English, Scottish, Welsh or from Northern Ireland. If you leave the UK you go from being a player on the international stage, to being nobody. Salmond keeps going on about fucking Denmark and Luxemborg. Who gives a fuck about Denmark and Luxemborg? They're the playground equivalent of your little brother who is waiting in the car whilst you get dropped off by your mum.

    Oh yeah, the last month or so has shown how big a player the UK is on the world stage. Alex Salmond goes on about Norway and Denmark because they are smaller countries that work and that's the model he's aiming for.
    Whowhere wrote: »
    You want the honest truth? We want to keep the UK whole, but if you're going to let people like Salmond stir up shit about how much better you're all going to be without us, why would we want you to stay?

    And just something else to point out, I am half Scottish before you get any ideas that I've got some vendetta against the place.

    Who is we?

    Ultimately, Scotland is on a different political course than the rest of the UK. Arguably always has been. The government in Westminister don't represent the Scots at all. You could probably say the same for the North of England.

    I hate these fucking threads because I don't want independence but I always have to defend against ridiculous rhetoric.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Scottish regiments or not, as part of the British Army it would be wrong and dangerous to assume that scotland would automatically get them, they could get the units but if for example many of the men were Fijian for example (which many are in the scottish regiments), then they wouldn't automatically be part of a Scottish defence force.

    I too have a big issue with Alex Salmond, not just about independence debating. However he does have a nasty habit of going head strong into things and telling the Scottish people what he wants to do. He has every right to do that and people have every right to listen, what people dont realise is that he is saying things that he has no idea if it will be the case or not when it comes round to it. Scotland wont be suddenly left out in the cold when the vote comes, but you cant mistake what Salmond has already done and will do again, mainly make statements and assume things (MI5/SIS support for example) will all go his way in negotiations.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So did anyone else keep an eye on the news today?

    From reading the news, I'm not the only one who thinks Salmond is off his rocker. In his manifesto he claims that Scotland will keep the pound, will remain in the EU and NATO, will still have the Queen as head of state and the BBC will still broadcast. He also goes on to say that the UK will still provide Scotland with debt relief and the money to allow its own university students to study for free.

    Fucking ridiculous. I've said it before, and I'll say it again (with the public backing of the government and media....) if Scotland goes, it goes completely. No handouts, no support. Success or failure totally on their own shoulders.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Part of me is tempted to vote yes, on the basis that he deserves to fall flat on his face. The other part of me knows that I should vote no because I am not a moron.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well I'm tempted to take up residence in Scotland prior to actual independence (if it all goes ahead). That way I could get dual citizenship. Just for the fun of it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I just don't get any of it. Salmond presumably thinks Scotland's getting fucked as part of the union?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I recently had my DNA analysed as part of the BritainsDNA project and I was interested to see how much of my ancestry passed through Scotland via northern Scandinavia.

    If one was to test the Scots, many will be awash with English/Welsh/Irish DNA too. We're essentially the same people on the same island and in this global world, 'nationalism' should be becoming irrelevant rather than the norm.

    1369459090nationalism1%5B1%5D.jpg
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