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Woolwich

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    That’s a pretty firm assertion. Do you have any evidence? You know, which would counter the fact that the vast majority of the population just gets on with their lives, happily co-existing, happily sharing cultural influences.

    Switch on BBC news, there you go

    Haven’t you contradicted yourself there?

    We're all equal at birth, but after we require different things. So no.

    Are you saying that society cannot cope with this? Society itself is constructed from individuals living their lives in their own way. What I do is not the same as you, so why can’t we exist side by side?

    We can, but some can't. This isn't about the people who can live side by side. It's about people who refuse too. If they were being peaceful and not killing people, there wouldn't be an issue right?

    No there isn’t. It’s a huge leap. Just as it is for any other religion.

    Islam clearly instructs people to behave this way



    So basically your argument there falls in on itself. There are passages advocating violence in most religious texts, just as there are those who will use them as justification for vile acts. This isn’t a religious issue, it’s a mental health issue. Unless you are arguing that the only people capable of violence against another are religious extremists.

    Ask why they are doing it though, it's not mental health, it's the fact they're not happy.

    We are, but I would question if the same could be said of you. Violence exists across the planet, it’s committed by people in the name of religion, in the name of politics (EDL, Bader-Meinhof for example).

    Yes people are violent everywhere all the time, for different reasons. But the reason we're discussing is the fact two Muslims, kill a british soldier. And to stop it happening again or worse, my opinion is that Islam/Muslims are too blame.

    What you seem to be doing is singling out one religion and the small minority of that religion to back up some spurious assertions. You are suggesting that all Muslims are the problem here and that fits the definition you are trying to hide behind. You are prejudiced. At least have the integrity to admit it.

    I have the integrity to admit, that Muslims are the problem in this case, with these problems we're discussing, like i said if it were Christians, Catholics or Budists doing these things, then I'd be aiming my discontent at them. I'm not prejudiced against muslims, I'm prejudiced against the extremist that it will ALWAYS bring.


    So, the question any statistician would ask is whether the group is actually representative of anything other than the people you mix with who are more likely to hold similar views to you.

    True, but then I would happily say that the sample of people i spoke to were completely random as such. As I never met these people, it was people through people, such as going to see a girlfriend, meeting her family, going to her families, friends house, and meeting their friends and discussing these problems. Although on this one i'll quite happily say, be ballsy and talk to people you know, and friends about things like this and what they actually think.

    Ask the Tory Party conference delegates if they will vote Labour at the next election and you’ll find a pretty clear one sided answer. Ask the BNP about their views on race relations and I’m pretty certain that you’ll get a large volume of support for deportation. Ask my Facebook friends and you will get very short thrift for the policies of the EDL, BNP and indeed the Tory party.

    As an aside, define “non-British”.
    That's funny, because i asked the Jobcentre the same thing a couple years ago.



    Look at the language you used there – immigrants and “normal people”. But, of course, you aren’t racist in anyway.

    How would you like me to distinguish between the two parties i'm trying to talk about? Red and blue? Team 1 Team 2?


    Because people want power. Before immigration was such a major part of British society we fought a civil war, there was the War of the Roses, we fought two World Wars and a huge number of smaller conflicts. None of that was because we were Muslim, was it?

    No? I don't quite understand what you mean.

    And that is the issue. Not religion or immigration status. The disaffected are fighting back in any way they know how. People will hide behind any grouping their feel comfortable with, whether that is their religion (how many “everyone hates Christians” stories have you read?), their politics or as in your case simple racism. We saw it in the UK in the 30s and in the 60s/70s – yet in spite of your protestations we are still here.

    And people are still dying, does this not prove that maybe the 'correct' way, or the 'non racist way', is maybe not working perhaps?

    That you use “they” just proves how irrational your “fear” actually is. Especially when you note that less than 5% of the population (as at 2011 census) are “Muslim”.
    Okay okay, you've got me there.

    My writing is in red? (My message was too short?)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You know that's three choices, right?

    Yes sorry I didn't proof read it. It started off with two choices, which was 2 and 3, but I added the first because it's the option we're currently choosing.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    And now we have the ever-insightful Shikari- a boy so stupid he takes his username from an Indian word whilst wanting to send Indians "home"- saying that anyone who questions any of this has been "brainwashed".

    And these people are allowed to vote? Give me strength. I couldn't trust racists like Shikari or StephenTommyPaulAndrew to find their arse with both hands and a map.

    HURRRR DUUUR HOW CAN I TRUST SOMEONE WHO IS NAMED AFTER A FROZEN FOOD SUBTANCE THEY FEED TO CHILDREN!?!?!

    Shikari is logical (to me anyway). I was born as Jordan Something, Something was from the man that I thought was my dad. My mum left him when i was 6, when I was just 16 years old, my mum told me, my real dad was greek, she met him during a one time fling. My last name meant nothing anymore. So I changed my name to Jordan Somethingelse. On the deedpoll form to change my name, it said I could have a middle name. So i chose the word 'Shikari' because it was from my favourite band (Enter Shikari) who i've listened to since they were a tiny band 8 years ago and because it was in Greek letters, to pay some homage to the fact my real dad is greek somewhat.

    So my name is Jordan Shikari Somethingelse (I'm sure you could find my full name, given you're clever enough).

    But what gives you a right, to judge me on a (user)name that's beyond stupid and childish and not even in the spirit of having a good argument. I find it real hard to not get angry during a debate, and when people like you who throw their toys out of the pram, i can't but help just get pissed with everyone.

    You know I'm quite happy for people to show and explain to me the reasons why i shouldn't be worried about the issues I am, and to explain to me that Multiculturalism can work... because it's EASIER and BETTER, for EVERYONE. All i am doing is explaing how i feel about the situation and wanting a response.

    Not to be insulted.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Shikari wrote:
    Switch on BBC news, there you go

    Any specific news story? Because I can't find any which suggest that multiculturalism does not, cannot and never has worked.
    We can, but some can't. This isn't about the people who can live side by side. It's about people who refuse too. If they were being peaceful and not killing people, there wouldn't be an issue right?

    That isn't about multiculturalism then is it? It's about people not getting along. That could just as much be a case of neighbourly disputes over fences, parking etc.
    Islam clearly instructs people to behave this way

    No it doesn't, any more than other religious texts do.
    Ask why they are doing it though, it's not mental health, it's the fact they're not happy.

    Lots of people aren't happy in life but not every one butchers someone in the street. That requires mental impairment of some kind, psychopathy, sociopathy? Not religious doctrine.
    Yes people are violent everywhere all the time, for different reasons. But the reason we're discussing is the fact two Muslims, kill a british soldier.

    Two people who happen to be Muslim. How do you explain the murder of the elderly muslim gentleman two weeks ago, or the father who slashed his two children's throats the week before the Rigby murder?
    And to stop it happening again or worse, my opinion is that Islam/Muslims are too blame.

    And there, in a single sentence is your prejudice writ large. Two people acted because of an injustice they perceived. I fail to see how you can extrapolate that to all Muslims in the UK and/or the entire planet.
    I'm not prejudiced against muslims, I'm prejudiced against the extremist that it will ALWAYS bring.

    Except that your previous sentence suggests otherwise.
    That's funny, because i asked the Jobcentre the same thing a couple years ago.

    Your comment, you define it. What are "non-british"?
    How would you like me to distinguish between the two parties i'm trying to talk about? Red and blue? Team 1 Team 2?

    I?d like you to recognise that immigrants are normal people rather than de-humanise them.
    No? I don't quite understand what you mean.

    That the "Christian" UK has been involved in several bloody conflicts where immigration has not been the cause or even a factor. That nations and people will fight for a number of reasons and yet you seem to be focused on just one ? their Muslim faith.

    Causes of conflict usually fall into a couple of categories - power or resources. Maybe you should consider which of those applies.
    And people are still dying, does this not prove that maybe the 'correct' way, or the 'non racist way', is maybe not working perhaps?

    Because the only people making race the issue, the defining factor, are the racists.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    As a great example of multiculturalism working, look at Google. They source their talent from all over the globe from different cultures and have extremely flexible working arrangements to suit different people. They gain the advantage that they can reflect the world they serve by being made up of people from different religions, creeds and so on and so forth.

    I don't think multiculturalism will inevitably work though. If the people within the environment are intolerant then it would struggle.

    Multiculturalism should be the metric of success, not the goal. The goal is for people to live safe and happy lives, able to fulfill their aspirations. If an organisation, environment or society becomes increasingly multicultural, it is an indicator that people are able to live safe and happy lives and are able to fulfill those aspirations. Not necessarily the only indicator though.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Interestingly one of the men involved in the killing was allegedly raped and violently assaulted by soldiers acting for MI5.

    http://www.nafeezahmed.com/2013/05/exclusive-woolwich-suspect-tortured-at.html

    What was that again about our brave heroes?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Just to be clear, are you trying to justify their actions or.. ?

    When we were discussing the terrorism claims, the source was pretty solid - first hand documentary video evidence of the immediate aftermath of the attack.

    Now we are looking at a blog post reporting of a letter written by a friend of the attackers claiming that Kenyan soldiers told the guy that UK security services were the reason he was being tortured. I mean, I could believe that MI6 had a hand in it - but this doesn't have any evidence to it as is. But, you would blame the UK intelligence services anyway?

    I'm just not sure what the point you're trying to make is...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Similarities might bring people together, but that which is different is what makes people stronger. Diversity in a number of different areas can allow an eclectic bunch to each bring their own skills to the table.

    In some ways we are all the same, as in others we have our differences. It matters not what we are, what colour our skin is, nor does it matter what our religion happens to be. What matters is who we are and how we treat others.

    The end.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well done, that was an impressive word to platitude ratio.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Infinite. wrote: »
    Well done, that was an impressive word to platitude ratio.

    All true though. Sometimes through the madness of trying to argue against racism/hatred/pain, platitudes is all some people will listen too.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    G-Raffe wrote: »
    All true though. Sometimes through the madness of trying to argue against racism/hatred/pain, platitudes is all some people will listen too.

    The madness of arguing against racism?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Infinite. wrote: »
    The madness of arguing against racism?

    Yes, perhaps I have worded it badly, I meant the madness you can get yourself into when trying to argue against someone who is a racist.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    They're still empty naive cliches that aim for profundity and hit patronising instead.

    Posting them then signing off with 'the end' as if you've just solved racism is hilarious.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Infinite. wrote: »
    They're still empty naive cliches that aim for profundity and hit patronising instead.

    Posting them then signing off with 'the end' as if you've just solved racism is hilarious.

    What else am I supposed to do, admit that racism is a bit bad but we should let things carry on as normal. People are overly keen at pointing out problems in the world, without any intent or ability or even concept of how to solve them. So I'm not aiming for profundity, I genuinely think it would/can work. Its a shame that people are often extremely defeatist about things like this.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    .
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