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Is gingerism a form of racism?

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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i understand that, but DV is endemic, and there is no excuse for taking children from school before they can read and write if youre not going to teach them yourself. It creates a cycle where the only way they can make money is via crime. Its a vicious circle and theyre so closed off and suspicious that they perpetuate it. Most people I knows only contact with gypsies is from being robbed unfortunately. I can see the sociological reasons why they distance themselves, but they also perpetuate their own reputation. Its a vicious cycle
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    81% of gypsy women have been victims of domestic violence. Much much higher figure than the genreal population,
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    thats irish travellers btw
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    81% of gypsy women have been victims of domestic violence. Much much higher figure than the genreal population,

    But that's not because the men have the "right" to beat them.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But that's not because the men have the "right" to beat them.

    Not the legal right, perhaps, but there are sometimes situations in closed communities where the police basically let them get on with it and it's seen as interfering or even racist to "impose our values" on them. I don't know if this is the case with these communities in the UK, but it's not exactly unheard of with minorities worldwide. The police have certainly admitted in the past to being very careful about investigating crimes in certain communities for fear of appearing racist. And if the police aren't going to do anything about a particular crime, then they effectively do have the right to carry on with it.

    And the problem you have (perfectly demonstrated on this thread) is that the definition of race is fairly fluid and often massively interwoven with cultural practices, which as far as I'm concerned, are fair game for criticism. So naturally, you end up with a situation where legitimate criticism of cultural traits or practices is condemned as racism, but equally, people with racist motivations will use negative cultural practices (which every culture has) to attack a particular race of people and stir up hatred against them.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i understand that, but DV is endemic, and there is no excuse for taking children from school before they can read and write if youre not going to teach them yourself. It creates a cycle where the only way they can make money is via crime. Its a vicious circle and theyre so closed off and suspicious that they perpetuate it.

    Specifically on the school issue, even if these communities did value education to the degree we all hope they would, they're still not going to have a great time of it. The reality of a community that constantly moves around is that there is going to be zero stability for their children. There would be no opportunity for a qualified teacher to get to know the student and see their progress over a long period of time. The child would have to make new friends at every new school, which is hard enough even when you don't come from a discriminated against minority. I suspect the most effective solution, at least at a young age, would be to assign teachers specifically to that community, but that would be an expensive solution, and no doubt wouldn't go down very well with the generally public, when the widespread perception is that these communities don't pay taxes in the first place. And it probably still wouldn't produce as good results as the general population.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i am not racist, but i am quite open to discussing shittiness of certain cultural norms and practices both in my own culture and others. If you accuse someone of racism because they say that there is a certain cultural behaviour that is abhorrant then you are silencing and regressive.
    I can SEE why its a vicious cycle, and that its a difficult problem to solve, in fact i think it will only be solved IN their own community because of the distrust towards non gypsies, which probably means it wont happen for a long long time. The ingrained culture IS one of domestic violence, slavery, removal of outside influences from an early age, anti divorce., its like patriarchy x100
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I know we have veered off the original subject somewhat, I just wanted to say I can't believe we missed this out of this thread:

    http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=KVN_0qvuhhw&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DKVN_0qvuhhw
  • SkiveSkive No discipline. No morality. No respect. New ForestPosts: 15,210 Skive's The Limit
    And the problem you have (perfectly demonstrated on this thread) is that the definition of race is fairly fluid and often massively interwoven with cultural practices, which as far as I'm concerned, are fair game for criticism. So naturally, you end up with a situation where legitimate criticism of cultural traits or practices is condemned as racism, but equally, people with racist motivations will use negative cultural practices (which every culture has) to attack a particular race of people and stir up hatred against them.

    It's not racist to say Travellers have problem with domestic violence, illiteracy or crime, as it's not racist to say Pakistani communities have problem with forced marriage and honor killings. But not all Romani people are wife beaters or thrives, and not all Pakistanis force their daughters to marry or kill them if the 'dishonor' their family.

    It is racist to call people a dirty gypo or a filthy paki. And it is racist to put up signs saying no travellers at the entrance to your property - something that still goes on in this country today.

    Worth noting too that not all Romani people live a nomadic lifestyle. Many of the Gypsies I went to school with live in houses or on the fixed site just up the road.
    Yesterday is history
    Tomorrow is a mystery
    But today is a gift
    That’s why it’s call the present
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Why is it racist not to want anyone parking on your property?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    it isnt?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well, if I owned a few acres of pasture, the last thing I'd want to wake up to is a load of tresspassers setting up camp and damaging my land... that doesn't make me racist. What do I do about the horses/donkeys/sheep/goats/elephant now?

    EDIT: SCC read your post backward, as "isn't it?"
  • SkiveSkive No discipline. No morality. No respect. New ForestPosts: 15,210 Skive's The Limit
    Fiend_85 wrote: »
    Well, if I owned a few acres of pasture, the last thing I'd want to wake up to is a load of tresspassers setting up camp and damaging my land... that doesn't make me racist. What do I do about the horses/donkeys/sheep/goats/elephant now?

    EDIT: SCC read your post backward, as "isn't it?"

    What would be wrong with a sign saying No Trespassing or No Parking rather than singling out Travellers.

    Anyway that's not what I meant. I was referring to the practice of Pubs and other establishments putting No Traveller signs at the entrance.
    Yesterday is history
    Tomorrow is a mystery
    But today is a gift
    That’s why it’s call the present
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yeah, well that's just not on, its no jews or no irish or no blacks. Its illegal.

    And there's nothing wrong with a sign saying no tresspassers.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Noone has ever said that its racist to not want gypsies setting up camp in your garden, and incidences of this fuel the anger against the community and create an us and them situation.
    They cant have it both ways. Its pretty much impossible to live a nomadic lifestyle in such an overpopulated country
  • SkiveSkive No discipline. No morality. No respect. New ForestPosts: 15,210 Skive's The Limit
    The vast majority of both Irish and Romani Travellers are not nomadic and live on fixed sites. Many don't live in caravans at all.

    Councils used to have a statutory duty to provide sites for nomadic Gypsy and Traveller families, but not anymore, and would now rather spend small fortunes each year evicting them. Gypises will quite often try to buy land themselves that they can use but due to cuntish NIMBY's, 90% of planning applications by Romanis and travellers are initially refused by local councils, compared with a national average of 20% for other applicants.

    So they can't buy land for themselves to live on, and people won't tolerate them even when they're living on authorized sites.
    There is a massive problem with prejudice against them in this county - something like 1 in 3 people are openly prejudiced against Travellers.
    Yesterday is history
    Tomorrow is a mystery
    But today is a gift
    That’s why it’s call the present
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i agree with this, and i think it is racism and NIMBYs that make people move off their OWN land.
    like with Dale farm
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Skive wrote: »
    So they can't buy land for themselves to live on, and people won't tolerate them even when they're living on authorized sites.
    There is a massive problem with prejudice against them in this county - something like 1 in 3 people are openly prejudiced against Travellers.

    :yes: I've always been shocked at the number of people I know who are liberal and fair in every respect but have a prejudice against travellers for no reason.

    There are some who have had bad experiences with traveller camps, true, but any group has a shitty sub-section.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i think a lot of the time there are reasons and a lot of people have had several bad experiences with travellers. The community is way too closed and shut off to be involved enough to see the good sides
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Wow, I didn't think this thread would get so many posts...each and every one has been very interesting.

    I think someone touched upon ethnicity, which I think is very true and very relevant, especially when you examine paintings of redheaded women in Pre-Raphaelite paintings, or models like Lily Cole, who have a very distinctive appearance (beyond red hair) which was typical of Northern Europe over the past few centuries. You could argue, that we were never really a multicultural country due to the way that redheads have been treated.

    As for history, as someone else mentioned, yes a lot of it goes back to witches - if you had red hair, you were a witch, and then killed.

    Someone else has mentioned that it cannot be considered racism until someone's housing, employment, or being refused help has been taken away or such a process disrupted or halted. Who's to say that this hasn't happened? Just because you don't hear about it, doesn't mean it hasn't happened. For argument's sake, I can count a number of people on two hands that I personally know that have been discriminated against in terms of job prospects and renting apartments.

    I think a lot of people put it down to stupidity of other people not having anything better to have a go at a redhead for, but at the same time it doesn't make it any less hurtful. Kids get bullied, some develop mental health problems as a result of the shame and embarrassment that they've been forced into feeling, some have killed themselves. However, many redheads don't get bullied, don't get a hard time in any area of life and certainly haven't felt like taking their own lives.

    Either way, it is a prejudice, in my opinion, that should have no place in today's British society.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It's no worse than any other form of discrimination and to think we could live in a world completely free from it is utter fantasy, not that it shouldn't be strived for.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    To say that it is no worse I may agree with, but that is also to say that it is no better. It will never go away, but it should be something that isn't so widely tolerated.

    Punk...the Heyman/CM moment on Monday was true heart-wrenching ;)
  • beesbees Posts: 1 Literally just got here
    hello I don't know if the conversation is still going but yea it winds me up when I get made fun of for being born with red hair
  • SkiveSkive No discipline. No morality. No respect. New ForestPosts: 15,210 Skive's The Limit
    This thread brought back some memories. Shame we can’t see the original posters names anymore.
    Yesterday is history
    Tomorrow is a mystery
    But today is a gift
    That’s why it’s call the present
  • maryam852maryam852 Posts: 66 Boards Initiate
    @Skive I think that racism is a very complicated topic and although verbal abuse against people who have ginger hair cannot be classed as racism, it is certainly not right. However, it is fair to say that is the abuse against people with ginger hair has underlying racist connotations, then it is an act of racism.
  • summerxo21summerxo21 LondonPosts: 321 The Mix Regular
    @maryam852 and @Skive Racism shouldn't be allowed.

    during the England match again Hungary the racism towards Raheem striling was horrific how uncomfortable he must have felt. it should be equal for each and everyone of us and our race/colour shouldn't affect anyone else, we all deserve to live our life without hate about our race and it bugs me after the #BLM's production that people are still being horrible to others.
    no way should anyone make anyone else uncomfortable whether their white,mixed race or black it shouldn't matter, don't like it move on simple.

    sorry -

    summer
    XLillyXmaryam852
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