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19 year old girl disguises as three different male personalities to date girls.

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2087804/Gemma-Barker-19-disguised-boy-date-GIRLS.html#comments

What a strange story. I can't completely get my head around that one, either there's bs in the story or that's a bloody good actress, even if she was manipulative.

I am a bit confused by some of her charges, though. Fraud? Unless there was financial gain made from dating these girls I do not see how she committed fraud apart from the "criminal injury". Lots of people fake their details, genders, pictures, etc online, I never thought that was fraud.

Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I believe I've read, although I could be wrong that lying about your identity in order to have sexual relations is an offence. Even if it isn't, several of the girls were underage anyway.


    Edit.

    After doing a bit of research it all revolves around the issue of consent. For a sexual assault to take place the victim needs to have not given consent or to have withdrawn it. If the girls consented to sexual relations based on the belief that this girl is actually a boy, and if the offender continued the relationship despite knowing that consent would be removed if the truth about their identity were known would be comitting an assault.

    This is my interpretation, based on there being little information in the story, so I could be way off and she's been done for grooming or something.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I agree with what Whowhere said about the issue of consent etc but the way that article described the girls as 'victims' (even though technically they were) makes the 19 year old sound like some kind of dangerous pedophile (sp?)

    I onle had a quick glance at the article so maybe she is but... i dunno
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So does that mean we could sue any transexual who didn't happen to be completely open about the fact that they were one? The only cases I've heard of where this is a crime are things like pretending to be someone's husband in order to get sex. I'm not sure pretending to be the opposite sex (or a celebrity) constitutes a crime. Obviously, if we're talking about underage girls, then that's a separate issue.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Isn't this a film with Hilary Swank? I'm pretty sure I've seen this one.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Threxy wrote: »
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2087804/Gemma-Barker-19-disguised-boy-date-GIRLS.html#comments

    What a strange story. I can't completely get my head around that one, either there's bs in the story or that's a bloody good actress, even if she was manipulative.

    I am a bit confused by some of her charges, though. Fraud? Unless there was financial gain made from dating these girls I do not see how she committed fraud apart from the "criminal injury". Lots of people fake their details, genders, pictures, etc online, I never thought that was fraud.

    Depends. If you're going to for example set up a business online as a girl when you're a guy that's fraud but if you're just using a girls name because you're in the same situation as me then it's not fraud. I hope that helped. :3
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It's fraud to obtain sexual relations by deceit. The issue isn't just the gender of the girl, more that she pretended to be other people in order to obtain sexual relations. A transgendered person wouldn't need to "declare" that they are transgender because they're not pretending to be anyone else; they are living as the gender, they're not living as one gender and having sexual relationships as another gender.

    Whether this girl should be on trial is, of course, a completely different matter. From what I've read, and only what I've read, I'd say that- yet again- the CPS lawyer who agreed to prosecute is a fucking idiot wasting my money on pointless bollocks.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Lexi99 wrote: »
    makes the 19 year old sound like some kind of dangerous pedophile (sp?)

    I onle had a quick glance at the article so maybe she is but... i dunno


    If she were a 19 year old lad contacting 15 year old boys on the internet, pretending to be a girl so he could meet up with them for sex, what would you think then?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So does that mean we could sue any transexual who didn't happen to be completely open about the fact that they were one?

    If they lied about their identity in order to have sex with you, then yes. How would you feel if after meeting a woman, you've had sex then afterwards you find she is actually a man? I know I'd be quite upset.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Being upset shouldn't make something a criminal offence though. If you pull someone when you're a bit tipsy and it turns out they're a munter you'd also be upset; should being pig ugly be a criminal offence too?

    Where does it stop? Sexual assault because you say you don't have a girlfriend? Haway. The lesson for these kids- one a lot of people would do well to remember- is get to know someone before you start having sexual relations with them.

    This prosecution is a complete waste of time and money and the criminal justice system is rather short of both.

    If a 19 year old boy was contacting 15 year old boys for sex, whilst pretending to be girl, I'd mostly be wondering how unobservant the younger one was. How many girls have a cock and balls?
  • **helen****helen** Mod malarkist Posts: 9,235 Listening Ear
    Whowhere wrote: »
    If they lied about their identity in order to have sex with you, then yes. How would you feel if after meeting a woman, you've had sex then afterwards you find she is actually a man? I know I'd be quite upset.

    As Artic Roll says - not in the case of a transexual who isn't actually 'lying' about their identity:
    The issue isn't just the gender of the girl, more that she pretended to be other people in order to obtain sexual relations. A transgendered person wouldn't need to "declare" that they are transgender because they're not pretending to be anyone else; they are living as the gender, they're not living as one gender and having sexual relationships as another gender.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Being upset shouldn't make something a criminal offence though. If you pull someone when you're a bit tipsy and it turns out they're a munter you'd also be upset; should being pig ugly be a criminal offence too?

    She isn't being prosecuted because the girls got upset, she is being prosecuted because she entered into sexual relationships with 3 people, at least 1 who was underage by lying about her identity. Like I said, it's about consent. Would these girls have consented to have embarked on a sexual relationship if this girl had told them she was female, I think not. hence, implied consent is withdrawn and the girl has comitted an offence.
    If a 19 year old boy was contacting 15 year old boys for sex, whilst pretending to be girl, I'd mostly be wondering how unobservant the younger one was. How many girls have a cock and balls?

    Use a fake picture on facebook, begin the relationship, groom the younger person and then take advantage of them. Whilst rare, it still happens. I do enough internet safety lessons using real life case studies to know that unfortunately.

    Obviously, getting to know someone is important, but how many adults do you know who actually get to know someone properly before having sex, and you expect children to do the same?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So, anyone who lies in order to have sex is a criminal? :eek:

    The girl told lies and was very deceitful, but at the end of the day it takes to two to tango and the girls in question should have been a bit more wary of what they were doing and more importantly who they were doing it with (How they couldn't tell is beyond me btw)

    Unless she forced herself on the girls I really don't see where the crime is? In the case of the two 16 year olds anyway....the underage girl is obviously an exception.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Am I the only one who sees a problem with a person who cons people into having sex with them?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Whowhere wrote: »
    Am I the only one who sees a problem with a person who cons people into having sex with them?

    Define "problem". Was what she did was morally reprihensible and pretty twisted? Most definitely....

    Was it a crime? I don't think so.

    People misrepresent themselves all the time in order to get sex do they not?
  • SkiveSkive No discipline. No morality. No respect. New ForestPosts: 15,248 Skive's The Limit
    Whowhere wrote: »
    If she were a 19 year old lad contacting 15 year old boys on the internet, pretending to be a girl so he could meet up with them for sex, what would you think then?

    This.
    Weekender Offender 
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But theres a difference between lying to girl and saying youve got a massive dong or earn a million pounds a week to get her into bed, and another to say that you're a guy when you're not
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It's fraud to obtain sexual relations by deceit. The issue isn't just the gender of the girl, more that she pretended to be other people in order to obtain sexual relations. A transgendered person wouldn't need to "declare" that they are transgender because they're not pretending to be anyone else; they are living as the gender, they're not living as one gender and having sexual relationships as another gender.

    Whether this girl should be on trial is, of course, a completely different matter. From what I've read, and only what I've read, I'd say that- yet again- the CPS lawyer who agreed to prosecute is a fucking idiot wasting my money on pointless bollocks.

    Okay I agreed on the first paragraph. :3
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What a very strange story.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Melian wrote: »
    What a very strange story.

    All stories are strange when they're about people who have multipul identities but that's what's interesting about them.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Whowhere wrote: »
    Am I the only one who sees a problem with a person who cons people into having sex with them?

    I don't think it is morally acceptable behaviour. But is it any different to the man who takes his wedding ring off when out on the pull, or the woman who "doesn't do photos" on internet dating websites to hide the fact she has a partner and three kids at home?

    We wouldn't be having this argument if this girl was actually a boy and shagging three different lasses on the go without telling them. It's unlikely three teenage girls would agree to have sex with a boy if they knew he was also shagging their two best mates at the same time. I don't think it is for the law to decide shades of grey- either lying should be illegal or not. And lying about your wife at home is lying to obtain sex.

    Essentially you're arguing that lying should be a criminal offence. Cheating is a shitty thing to do but an illegal thing to do? Haway.
  • SkiveSkive No discipline. No morality. No respect. New ForestPosts: 15,248 Skive's The Limit
    is it any different to the man who takes his wedding ring off when out on the pull, or the woman who "doesn't do photos" on internet dating websites to hide the fact she has a partner and three kids at home?

    Yes. That fact that one was underage makes it quite a different story.
    We wouldn't be having this argument if this girl was actually a boy and shagging three different lasses on the go without telling them.

    But that's not a comparable situation. What if it were a 19 year old man pretending to be a girl to get sex from 15 year old boy? You don't think the law should be involved in that?
    Weekender Offender 
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I know the age of consent is 16, but I don't see a 19 year old shagging a 15 year old as the worst crime in humanity, 16 is just where the line is drawn, it's hardly paedophilia. Lots of 18 and 19 year olds have sex with 15 year old partners, neither party is harmed, except in this case of course.

    I also don't even consider an 18 or 19 year old to be a man or woman, even if we are legally adults, it just doesn't sound right lol.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Skive wrote: »
    Yes. That fact that one was underage makes it quite a different story.

    She hasn't been charged with having sex with a minor, she's been charged with obtaining sex by deception.
    But that's not a comparable situation. What if it were a 19 year old man pretending to be a girl to get sex from 15 year old boy? You don't think the law should be involved in that?

    No, I don't, for exactly the same reason. I think men and women are both equally capable of being predatory sex offenders and I don't go in for treating them differently. But I don't think pretending to be another gender is any different to pretending to be single or pretending to have no kids.

    If it was an older person trying to have sex with a younger person through deception then that's a different matter, because of the obvious power imbalance. But the law already recognises that.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So do you think that these men should be arrested and charged with something then? I'd be particularly interested in Whowhere's view as the board's unofficial police representative. If consent by deception is rape, then these men are surely guilty, and the police as an organisation are surely guilty of having ordered it and facilitated it?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If it can be proven that the only reason the women consented was because they thought they were activists then I don't see why not. It would also lead to the past lives of these women being dragged up
    "so you say you'd only ever have slept with him because he said he was an activist, we have here signed testimony that on at least 4 occasions you had sex with so and so". or "please explain your 2 year relationship with this man who was an accountant" e.t.c.

    As for the police as a whole, how would you go about proving that sexual relationships were ordered? I can imagine the bosses saying the opposite tbh.

    A girl having sex with someone she thought was a boy, much easier to prove she wouldn't have done if she knew it was a girl.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    obtaining sex by deception, isnt that how most one night stands work?

    I hardly think its a criminal offence. I wouldnt like it, but if you sleep with someone you hardly know its a chance you take. Like someone lying about their age, or their marital status, or their job.

    Put it down to experience. Morally wrong, but shouldnt be criminally wrong
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So does that mean we could sue any transexual who didn't happen to be completely open about the fact that they were one? The only cases I've heard of where this is a crime are things like pretending to be someone's husband in order to get sex. I'm not sure pretending to be the opposite sex (or a celebrity) constitutes a crime. Obviously, if we're talking about underage girls, then that's a separate issue.
    If somebody is post-op though and identified as that gender any way... Surely their birth sex wouldn't matter?

    I dunno how it would stand legally though.
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