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Islam

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    katralla wrote: »
    I have a direct question for you - how is Islam the cause of our recent riots?

    He's like Thanatos and Diesel when they were here. Everything could be blamed on people who weren't from the USA or UK.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Islam is no worse or better than Christianity.

    You seem convinced that the truth about a religion is what is in the religious books? That I think is where you and many others differ.

    When you say you dont blame muslims, but instead blame islam; you do realise that one must follow islam to be a muslim?

    You have had some bad experiences in your past yes; but it is people like you who antagonise both good and badly behaved muslims. You are the kind of person that would create a radical follower of islam by means of the hateful things you say.

    Have you ever stopped to think that maybe the reason everyone in here seems to be out to get you, is because perhaps you might actually be wrong and you have stepped into a forum where you didnt expect people to actually disagree with you.

    I'm an open minded and considerate person, hence why I have defended and attacked islam and christianity to varying extents. You seem to be hell bent on causing commotion and trouble by preaching at hateful intolerance towards Islam, which is no better than the way I'm sure these radical muslims are towards you.

    People in glass houses shouldnt throw stones Ronyvo. I would love for you to go to a mosque and tell them what you have been preaching to us about Islam. If there was any trouble I would bet money on it not being because of Islam, but because you come accross as an arrogant person who doesnt care less about other people.

    Please can you not tell that there are little if not no people who agree with you here, so you can preach all you want but it isnt going to change our minds, and will most likely make us think you are more of a hypocritical antagonist than you already are!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ronyvo wrote: »
    Our God gave us the FREEDOM of choice. He did not create robots.

    Psalm 139:16 (New Living Translation)

    You saw me before I was born.
    Every day of my life was recorded in your book.
    Every moment was laid out
    before a single day had passed.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Psalms 19:14

    Before I pull up and park and bust in your apartment
    I'ma just perm my hair like Al Sharpton
    And get a picket sign just to protest your flow next
    Your little pussy rhymes need Kotex
    There's mad little tricks hittin' up in my sleeve
    Don't be naive I'll have you screamin' out "Why me?"
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Sorry, I lost you. Do you mean that we do not have the freedom of choice?! That means that EVERY single one beahves the same
    > That does not make any sense.
  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Warming up? Posts: 16,688
    Psalm 139:16 (New Living Translation)

    You saw me before I was born.
    Every day of my life was recorded in your book.
    Every moment was laid out
    before a single day had passed.
    That's not saying we don't have choices, it says our choices are predictable (for a God).
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ronyvo wrote: »
    Sorry, I lost you. Do you mean that we do not have the freedom of choice?! That means that EVERY single one beahves the same
    > That does not make any sense.

    Were you referring to my post? Or CptCoatHanger's 'tounge-in-cheek' reply?
    That's not saying we don't have choices, it says our choices are predictable (for a God).

    Nice try, Indrid, but read the passage of a few more bibles to get a feel for the translation. It has nothing to do with 'predictability'. But assuming that you still feel that God gives you 'free choice', here are a few more considerations :

    "According as [Christ] hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: having predestinated [Greek proorizo, to predetermine, to decide beforehand] us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will...."
    —Ephesians 1:4,5 (KJV)

    "For whom [God] did foreknow [proginosko], he also did predestinate [proorizo] to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? .... Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth."
    —Romans 8:29-33 (KJV)

    "Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"

    —Romans 9:14-21 (KJV)

    This long verse makes it clear what Paul's views on free will are. Salvation is "not of him that willeth", but the choice of God, who selects some people and shows mercy to them. The rest, like Pharaoh, he "hardens" so that they will reject him and be condemned. But the most incontrovertible proof that this passage teaches predestination is that Paul anticipates the obvious counterargument - that it would be unjust for God to punish people for being as he made them to be - and responds to it! His argument is that since God is the maker, he can do whatever he wants with us - just as a potter shapes clay into different vessels to suit his purposes - and we have no right to lay a charge of injustice against him.

    Verses like these may disturb Christians who've always believed that God gave us free will. But the truth is that such a concept finds little support in the Bible. By contrast, the pro-predestination verses are numerous and specific in their wording: God makes us as he chooses, rewards the people whom he made to be good, and punishes the ones whom he made to be evil, even though neither group had any choice in how they would turn out. Many influential historical Christian thinkers, including Augustine, Martin Luther and John Calvin, accepted these verses for what they say.

    Today this view is much less popular, probably because of its unsettling moral implications for God's goodness.

    But don't fool yourself. The Bible has far more passages that declare preordination above free-will.
  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Warming up? Posts: 16,688
    Are any of them not in things written by Paul? Paul could have misinterpreted things just like most of the priesthood today does.
    (Not being sarcastic, it's an honest question.)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Are any of them not in things written by Paul? Paul could have misinterpreted things just like most of the priesthood today does.
    (Not being sarcastic, it's an honest question.)

    I know you are not being sarcastic. :)

    Considering that Paul is the author of 13 books of the New Testament and is widely acknowledged to be the principle force behind the early Christian movement, if he got this wrong, what else did he get wrong? How can you trust ANYTHING he writes?

    But lets assume God know everything before it happens. If God exists, He is all knowing. That means that in advance he knows what we will do. If He knew yesterday that today I will do the laundry - am I free to NOT do the laundry today? There is a conflict between our assumption that we have free will, and God's all knowing nature.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru

    But lets assume God know everything before it happens. If God exists, He is all knowing. That means that in advance he knows what we will do. If He knew yesterday that today I will do the laundry - am I free to NOT do the laundry today? There is a conflict between our assumption that we have free will, and God's all knowing nature.

    Unless God exists out of time, ie he exists in the past, present and future. So we have free will to do what we do, but to God he has already seen it in the past.
  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Warming up? Posts: 16,688
    But lets assume God know everything before it happens. If God exists, He is all knowing. That means that in advance he knows what we will do. If He knew yesterday that today I will do the laundry - am I free to NOT do the laundry today? There is a conflict between our assumption that we have free will, and God's all knowing nature.
    How does someone else (God or mortal) knowing what you're going to do affect your choice? If I showed you a fiver and a tenner and told you to pick one and it's yours I'd be sure you'd pick the tenner. That doesn't mean you weren't free to pick the fiver.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Is the god that knows everything ineffectual, does that god not have a choice? If that god knows what will happen before it does, did that god have a choice in creating the agents - god knows what people will do when it creates them, god chooses to create the people, therefore aren't the choices of the people it created all actually choices of the god that created them knowing they would make those choices?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Unless God exists out of time, ie he exists in the past, present and future. So we have free will to do what we do, but to God he has already seen it in the past.

    In that case, if God has already seen my past, which is still my future, it's something I can't change and have no free will over. You can have either God's omniscience or human free will, but you can't have both.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    How does someone else (God or mortal) knowing what you're going to do affect your choice? If I showed you a fiver and a tenner and told you to pick one and it's yours I'd be sure you'd pick the tenner. That doesn't mean you weren't free to pick the fiver.

    I notice you use the word 'sure'. You still acknowledge that there is still some uncertainty.

    Our predictions are sometimes wrong, but only because our knowledge is limited. We think we know someone's personality, but we only know what they show us, not the emotions they keep hidden. We think we know how the stock market will react, but we aren't aware of all the economic indicators in every company and in every nation. It doesn't look like rain, but there's a sudden depression moving in from the south. etc etc

    Prediction depends on omniscience - total knowledge. If you know everything, you can predict everything - the exact moment a dropped ball will hit the ground, the precise effect an espresso will have on busy executive's ability to think, whether a disaffected youth will put on a suicide belt and blow up a crowded market.

    Of course we do not have total knowledge - and we never will have it. But, believers tell us, God knows; God knows everything. He knows every detail about us, from the chemical content of the air we breathe to our exact DNA, from every thought that we hide from ourselves to the slightest nuance of our every mood. He knows what we will do and say in every situation, whether we will lie or tell the truth, whether we will love our neighbor or hate her, whether we will worship God or spurn him.

    The fact that God knows everything means that human beings have no free will. In our minds we are free - but the freedom is illusory. We think we are free because we do not see or understand all the influences on our personalities and lives - our parents' attitudes towards us, the viruses lurking in the air, airline timetables, bank crashes, friends' emotions, a shop window display. And so on.

    But for God, we have no free will. He knows already every influence, past, present and future on our lives. He knows how we behave - and will behave - in every situation. He knows whether we will worship or abandon him. It makes no difference what we do, whether we pray and worship or sin and blaspheme; God knows, even before we are born whether we will enter Heaven or Hell after we die. Our free will is an illusion; our lives are forever fixed in the amber of God's mind.

    Some believers accept this principle, known as predestination. They accept that God knows who will be saved and who will not and nothing anybody can do will change that situation. Within that group, some believe that they have been saved, which means that it doesn't matter how badly they behave because God has reserved a place for them in heaven. You can work out for yourself the fault in their logic...

    It's not only humans who have no free will - neither does God. Because he knows everything, he knows his own being and future. He cannot choose to act because he knows already what his choices and actions are. God is trapped in eternity in his own omniscience...

    If God exists, we can only come to one of two conclusions:

    a. If God knows everything, we have no free will - and he lies when he tells us that we have it

    b. If we have free will, God does not know everything - he is not God
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    In that case, if God has already seen my past, which is still my future, it's something I can't change and have no free will over. You can have either God's omniscience or human free will, but you can't have both.

    But your future is still your future it is just that to God (who is omnipresent), past, present and future are all the same as he exists outside time

    If God exists His magnitude is likely so big we are unable to get our heads round it
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But your future is still your future it is just that to God (who is omnipresent), past, present and future are all the same as he exists outside time

    If God exists His magnitude is likely so big we are unable to get our heads round it

    I agree. My future is my future. The issue is that if God has seen my future, I can't change it - therefore I have no free will.

    To non-believers, earthquakes are an example of proof that God lacks compassion and that therefore he cannot exist. But believers are reluctant to give up their faith, so they rationalise and say that God demonstrates his compassion by letting us learn from suffering.

    I can understand that a 35-year-old woman whose back is broken in the earthquake may learn from suffering. But how does God show his compassion by killing babies, or by letting a four-year old child live while his parents die? Or by destroying an old man's home and watching him freeze and starve to death while he waits for rescue? Believers cannot answer that; they can only say that 'sometimes God is beyond our understanding'.

    But that explanation - God is beyond our understanding - makes no sense. God created us in his image; scripture tells us he has communicated with us very clearly in the past. People who pray believe they talk directly to God. God is irrelevant if we cannot understand him. Furthermore, compassion is not conditional, and compassion does not wait. If we fallible human beings are moved to relieve suffering as soon as we observe it, it is impossible for a perfect God to ignore suffering when he observes it.

    God's qualities cannot co-exist - and without them, God cannot exist. God's failure to save human life in an earthquake or any other natural disaster demonstrates that he lacks at least one of the three qualities - he cannot predict disasters or he cannot stop them or he has no compassion. The world we live in proves that God's qualities cannot co-exist - and without these qualities, God himself cannot exist.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Good answer. Logical enough for those who let their brain works freely.
  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Warming up? Posts: 16,688
    I seriously don't understand how you go from "if someone knew everything it would be possible to predict people's choices" to "people don't have free will".
    Free will is being able to make the choice that seems best to you at any particular moment. Someone who knew you perfectly (much better than you know yourself) would know what your choice would be under any circumstances. That doesn't make it any less your choice.

    EDIT:
    I agree. My future is my future. The issue is that if God has seen my future, I can't change it - therefore I have no free will.
    You can't change your future because you haven't not seen it, not because someone else has seen it (if they have). If you don't know your future, your choices are 100% dependent on your past. That past is what has made you who you are and so defines what your choice is. It's still your choice; nobody else made it for you.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm sorry that you can't see the logic of my argument (although ronyvo can) but perhaps it's because I am not explaining myself in respect to your personal view of God, whatever that may be.

    I suppose, as an alternative, perhaps you would be kind enough to give me a number of biblical verses that will prove your standpoint please?

    Here are a few more examples I can use as proof that God does interfere with our 'free will' :

    Proverbs 16:4
    The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

    John 12:40
    He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

    Romans 9:18
    Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

    2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
    God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned.

    2 Corinthians 4:3-4
    But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not.

    You see, if you continue down your line of argument that God can see our futures before we have even made our 'decisions' under free will, it opens a whole new can of worms (and which will take this whole thread even more off topic than it has already ... my fault, I'm sure).

    It will prove that God is either is powerless to intervene on our behalf - or he has zero compassion, not something very worthy of an almighty being.

    The bible tells us time and time again that he is our 'protector' and also that if 'two or more are gathered' and pray in the name of Jesus, the prayers WILL be answered etc etc.

    Looking around this world, God certainly does not protect his 'children' and he certainly does not answer prayers either, especially any prayers that would help change this world for the better.

    God can't have his cake and eat it.

    Finally, let me tell you where I am coming from. I grew up in a family of Christians and my brother is even a pastor in a local church (awkward!). I considered myself a staunch Christian for most of my life but a number of events over the last few years have slowly opened my eyes to the deception that is religion. I know the bible very well and I know the various Christian doctrines around it. I have come to the conclusion that the bible and other holy books are just stories, with glaring inaccuracies, and they raise more questions about God than answering them. I don't know if there is a God that kick started the whole Big Bang/evolutionary process .. but I certainly know that as religion stands in the world today, there is no personal or caring God.
  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Warming up? Posts: 16,688
    I consider the topic of this thread to have changed. I'm not talking about God at all. I'm just saying what I said: Whether events are predetermined* or not, and whether someone knows enough to predict the future but doesn't intervene in any way, is irrelevant to whether or not people have free will.

    *In the sense of "directly depend on what has happened before them and the same causes will always produce the same results", not "predecided".
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I consider the topic of this thread to have changed. I'm not talking about God at all. I'm just saying what I said: Whether events are predetermined* or not, and whether someone knows enough to predict the future but doesn't intervene in any way, is irrelevant to whether or not people have free will.

    *In the sense of "directly depend on what has happened before them and the same causes will always produce the same results", not "predecided".

    And I think that you're trying to square a circle (especially in line with the biblical scriptures I quoted). However, we will agree to disagree then. Thanks for the debate though. :)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    We could go with the Dr Who explanation that time is wibbly wobbly...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm with katralla. Here, he explains it all so succintly:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So much easier to understand than Stephen Hawking's definition! :lol:
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