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The right to eat the poo-poo

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    kira wrote: »
    Day to day African values are different to our own. Europeans did not influence Africa in that regard.

    Which lends to my earlier point. To understand where Uganda is coming from, we must understand why they think that way.

    The way I see it, either we leave them be, condemn them or place sanctions on them, or persuade them non-coercively to change.
    Africa is a massive continent with hundreds of ethnic groups... I don't see how there can be 'African values'.

    Same with European... You can't compare Irish culture to Slovakian culture with a sweeping term.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm not asking you what or who Bantu people are, though I'm sure I remember it being a pejorative term. I'm asking what the values of Africans and Europeans are, being as you've said they are different. I've also asked how you know that 'the majority' adhere to these values? Foods or clothes common to an area aren't values.

    I don't think I'm asking ambiguous questions, but you don't seem to want to answer...

    I can only speak of Ghana and Nigeria, but these countries are more conservative than the West and generally more religious.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    kira wrote: »
    I can only speak of Ghana and Nigeria, but these countries are more conservative than the West and generally more religious.

    Those two countries are such a small representation of africa.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    To my knowledge there are no liberal cultures in Africa, not to the point of Western Europe.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm sorry, but that man's views are so ridiculous that I actually can't stop laughing at him

    I started laughing from the "like ice cream" point onwards
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    kira wrote: »
    I can only speak of Ghana and Nigeria, but these countries are more conservative than the West and generally more religious.

    OK, so you've no intention of answering.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    OK, so you've no intention of answering.

    Can you state the contrary?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    kira wrote: »
    Can you state the contrary?

    Just because someone else can disprove your point, doesn't mean its possible to make a sweeping generalisation of a whole continent based on two countries, you are just as if not more responsible for backing up your own argument as other people are for disproving it imo
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    kira wrote: »
    I can only speak of Ghana and Nigeria, but these countries are more conservative than the West and generally more religious.
    Most of Africa's pretty religious and on the conservative (with a small c) side of things.

    Though much like bigger nations, they also have hypocritical attitudes towards topics such as sex. Take the USA, for example. A country with a massive right-wing Christian following, yet also a country that produces more pornography than any other in the world.

    Now let's take AIDS, which has blighted much of Africa. Apparently, the spread of AIDS is because Africans are apparently not as educated as we are. It's also apparently because of the evil Catholic Church teaching people not to have sex outside of marriage. Perhaps, if people don't wish to see AIDS spreading, they should wear condoms or alternatively, stop shagging everything that moves?

    Now let's see who'll be the first poster to come along and call me a racist.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »

    Now let's take AIDS, which has blighted much of Africa. Apparently, the spread of AIDS is because Africans are apparently not as educated as we are. It's also apparently because of the evil Catholic Church teaching people not to have sex outside of marriage. Perhaps, if people don't wish to see AIDS spreading, they should wear condoms or alternatively, stop shagging everything that moves?

    Now let's see who'll be the first poster to come along and call me a racist.

    I'm not going to call you a racist - well not yet, anyway. But I would like you to clarify your point here, because I don't quite get it.

    Are you saying that the AIDS epidemic in Africa is caused by people there "shagging everything that moves"?

    And are you defending the Catholic church's role in the spread of AIDS by arguing that it's not Catholicism's stance on extramarital sex that has contributed to the spread of AIDS, it's the fact that people don't wear condoms?! Because last time I heard, the Catholic church weren't too crazy about condoms, either. So if people aren't using condoms, the Catholic church has got something to answer for there.

    Bah, can't believe I took the bait. I'm so weak!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »
    It's also apparently because of the evil Catholic Church teaching people not to have sex outside of marriage. Perhaps, if people don't wish to see AIDS spreading, they should wear condoms or alternatively, stop shagging everything that moves?

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/17/pope-africa-condoms-aids

    Your own opinions, SG... but not your own facts.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ah yes, but that source comes from the Guardian - sorry, the Grauniad - and therefore Stargalaxy can instantly dismiss it as bollocks :razz:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    jamelia wrote: »
    Ah yes, but that source comes from the Guardian - sorry, the Grauniad - and therefore Stargalaxy can instantly dismiss it as bollocks :razz:
    He would probably just dismiss it anyway, because doing anything else would mean he actually might know what he's talking about.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    jamelia wrote: »
    Are you saying that the AIDS epidemic in Africa is caused by people there "shagging everything that moves"?
    Well, restraint could be called for, I'd say. If you've already got AIDS, it's probably not a good idea to go and have unprotected sex with other people, is it?
    And are you defending the Catholic church's role in the spread of AIDS by arguing that it's not Catholicism's stance on extramarital sex that has contributed to the spread of AIDS, it's the fact that people don't wear condoms?! Because last time I heard, the Catholic church weren't too crazy about condoms, either. So if people aren't using condoms, the Catholic church has got something to answer for there.
    The Catholic Church's view is don't have sex outside of marriage. Seems fair enough, except obviously to Grauniad readers. But if people really feel the need to get it on, they should be using contraception.

    The way to deal with this problem is to deal with the bigger problem. Mainly the severe poverty in Africa. Remove trade barriers and give Africans the chance to get themselves out of that poverty. This will see many, many problems that Africa suffers from being dealt with, including this one. It will also mean the Grauniad not having to drone on about the "guilt" that us Westerners should apparently feel about Africa.
    Bah, can't believe I took the bait. I'm so weak!
    funny-picture-cat-fail.jpg

    Oh, and don't bother asking me for a defence of the Catholic Church or the Pope. Every day that man remains in charge of the world's Catholics is another bleak day.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »
    Well, restraint could be called for, I'd say. If you've already got AIDS, it's probably not a good idea to go and have unprotected sex with other people, is it?
    If I had a desk, my head would be repeatedly banging against it right now.

    I would tell you why you're wrong but I sense it would be totally pointless.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Franki wrote: »
    If I had a desk, my head would be repeatedly banging against it right now. I would tell you why you're wrong but I sense it would be totally pointless.
    Tell me anyway. I'm listening.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »
    Well, restraint could be called for, I'd say. If you've already got AIDS, it's probably not a good idea to go and have unprotected sex with other people, is it?

    So then, by that logic, the fact that Africa has a far bigger AIDS problem than say, Europe, can be mainly attributed to the fact that people in Africa are far more promiscuous than people in Europe.

    Do you really think that's a sensible hypothesis?

    If not, might it then be the case that people "shagging everything that moves" is not in fact the main cause of the African AIDS epidemic?


    The Catholic Church's view is don't have sex outside of marriage. Seems fair enough, except obviously to Grauniad readers. But if people really feel the need to get it on, they should be using contraception.


    They also have a pretty well known policy on condom use, which you are choosing to ignore because it doesn't fit with you ridiculous thesis on this topic. If you think that the AIDS epidemic in Africa can be attributed to people not using condoms, then you might want to wake up and recognise the role the Catholic church has played in that.

    Oh, and the idea that there is some consensus among everybody except Guardian readers that it is fair enough to expect adults not to have sex outside of marriage, is hilarious!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    jamelia wrote: »
    So then, by that logic, the fact that Africa has a far bigger AIDS problem than say, Europe, can be mainly attributed to the fact that people in Africa are far more promiscuous than people in Europe.
    I don't recall saying that. People in Africa are most likely no more promiscuous than the rest of the world. Access to contraception is more of an issue in Africa, however. All I have to do to obtain condoms is go into any supermarket in town. Heck, I could even order them on this internet connection I'm using right now.

    Many Africans can't do that, you know. Tesco haven't branched out into the Sahara Desert yet, though they seem to be everywhere else.
    Oh, and the idea that there is some consensus among everybody except Guardian readers that it is fair enough to expect adults not to have sex outside of marriage, is hilarious!
    You clearly haven't studied much history, then. Until around 50 years ago, having sex outside of marriage was pretty rare. Besides, marriage works as an institution. It's not perfect, but it's good for individuals and good for society.

    I'm not saying we should go back to the age when children who were born out of wedlock should be condemned or frowned upon, but I do think something has been lost in that time.

    Now then, let's see your true colours come out.
  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Posts: 16,688 Skive's The Limit
    I note for the record that SG has been obviously ignoring the argument about the catholics and condoms.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »
    You clearly haven't studied much history, then. Until around 50 years ago, having sex outside of marriage was pretty rare.

    I smell bullshit!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »
    Tell me anyway. I'm listening.
    Alright then, let's go back to this point you made:
    stargalaxy wrote:
    If you've already got AIDS, it's probably not a good idea to go and have unprotected sex with other people, is it?

    Now, that's a perfectly valid comment to make, and I'm not doubting the truth of it, but the idea that it's all to do with promiscuity makes me sad.

    One of the biggest problems in the AIDS problem in Africa is the people who, knowing they have AIDS, will go out and rape other women or infect prostitutes, who then pass it on to other clients.

    There have been cases in the western world where men have been charged (although mostly not convicted, it seems: http://www.aegis.org/news/wsj/1997/WJ971101.html) with murder for knowingly having unprotected sex with the virus, so I'm sure you can imagine the numbers of people who do things like that in Africa, where they don't have access to contraception or to the kind of healthcare we've come to expect here.

    The idea that the epidemic is all just an issue of contraception and restraint annoys me, because you know as well as I do that there are people in this world who are malicious and cause deliberate harm to others, and that is a big big problem there.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Franki wrote: »
    Now, that's a perfectly valid comment to make, and I'm not doubting the truth of it, but the idea that it's all to do with promiscuity makes me sad.

    One of the biggest problems in the AIDS problem in Africa is the people who, knowing they have AIDS, will go out and rape other women or infect prostitutes, who then pass it on to other clients.

    There have been cases in the western world where men have been charged (although mostly not convicted, it seems: http://www.aegis.org/news/wsj/1997/WJ971101.html) with murder for knowingly having unprotected sex with the virus, so I'm sure you can imagine the numbers of people who do things like that in Africa, where they don't have access to contraception or to the kind of healthcare we've come to expect here.

    The idea that the epidemic is all just an issue of contraception and restraint annoys me, because you know as well as I do that there are people in this world who are malicious and cause deliberate harm to others, and that is a big big problem there.
    So you're saying that AIDS is being spread in part thanks to rapists? I'm glad someone's said it for me - TheSite's many members won't come along and make knee-jerk reaction shouts of "racist!" in your direction.

    Completely agreed with you, as it happens.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »
    So you're saying that AIDS is being spread in part thanks to rapists? I'm glad someone's said it for me - TheSite's many members won't come along and make knee-jerk reaction shouts of "racist!" in your direction.

    Completely agreed with you, as it happens.
    Not JUST because of rapists, but it's certainly an issue. I don't see how that could make me (or you, for that matter) a racist, because rape happens, whether here or there or anywhere. Unfortunately, the places where the AIDS epidemic is at its worst are poor areas which don't have access to the education and healthcare advice that would help battle the problem.

    *shrug* I don't know a great deal about it, but I think it is wrong to say that it's JUST religion (although that does play a huge part), or JUST contraception or JUST anything, because it's a whole big steaming shitpile of problems all making it worse.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Oh well, I think I will retire from trying to debate with you, SG. It's pretty irritating and frustrating to try to have a debate with you when you deliberately ignore the parts of (my and others') posts that you are unable to respond to. It makes the whole debate format impossible.

    But before I sign off, let me just demonstrate why you are being exceptionally difficult and frustrating to debate with. You have argued in this thread:

    (1) That it is false to blame the Catholic church's stance on premarital abstinence for the African AIDS epidemic.

    (2) That the AIDS epidemic can be attributed to people in Africa not using condoms.

    And then consistently ignored the very salient point:

    (3) That the Catholic church is also anti-condom use.

    I don't know why you keep ignoring that point, except maybe it would entail some kind of retreat, or acknowledgement that your position in (1) isn't entirely correct or coherent.

    It makes arguing with you futile though, so I'm giving up, for this thread at least.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Oh Jamelia, you'll learn to love me in time. But since you ask...

    I think the Catholic Church's line is blurred on this, but I wouldn't expect anything else. They say - don't have sex outside of marriage. Seems a fair enough view to hold to me. Many a person has held that view ever since Christianity and its various strands appeared over the last few thousand years. Now, it's well known that Catholics don't especially like contraception, to say the least. This Pope is, without a doubt, an utter idiot - what else can one say about a man who believes condoms would actually make things WORSE? So as far as I'm concerned, any similiarties between my view and that of the Church ends there.

    Next, I am told I've been arguing "that the AIDS epidemic can be attributed to people in Africa not using condoms". I think that's a pretty big factor, don't you? Condoms help prevent a large number of STDs, including HIV/AIDS. That much I believe.

    As for me apparently ignoring the fact "the Catholic church is anti-condom use", see the first paragraph. I think the Church's line is rather idealist on this matter. My view is - people really shouldn't be shagging everything that moves, but if they must, they should use protection. I can't see what's so unreasonable about that.
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