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The beginning of the end for AIPAC?

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
in Politics & Debate
Well unfortunately, probably not, but a media strong blow struck to the unquestioning support structure that Israeli's military has enjoyed.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/23/israel-arms-embargo-gaza

I've stated before that I think both sides deserve criticism - Amnesty & Palestinian Human Rights watch both condemned Hamas last week for it's use of abduction and murder to further political aims.

However Israel is the one holding the big guns, and as such are likely to cause more mayhem per action than Hamas. The use of white phosphorus in those civilian areas is scandalous,

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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Martin_Bashir wrote: »
    I've stated before that I think both sides deserve criticism - Amnesty & Palestinian Human Rights watch both condemned Hamas last week for it's use of abduction and murder to further political aims.

    However Israel is the one holding the big guns, and as such are likely to cause more mayhem per action than Hamas. The use of white phosphorus in those civilian areas is scandalous,

    Scandalous certainly, illegal quite possibly not.

    Personally I dont see any end to it, both sides strike me as multi-generational abused children acting out the stupid, dangerous and self defeating actions of those before them.

    Israel kills civilians so Hamas does the same, they are both in the wrong and both need to be slapped and told to grow up.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    budda wrote: »
    Scandalous certainly, illegal quite possibly not.
    I think if there was the will to take Israel to court and that court was free of intereference and pressure from third parties, it would be an absolute certainty that Israel would be found guilty of war crimes. International law is crystal clear about targetting civilians and using certain type of ammunition against them, both of which have been perpetrated by Israel extensively, both in Gaza recently and elsewhere in the past.
    Israel kills civilians so Hamas does the same, they are both in the wrong and both need to be slapped and told to grow up.
    Completely agree. It does not help that one side is treated as terrorists and the other as the victims who don't ever get even a single word of mild criticism at diplomatic level.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    I think if there was the will to take Israel to court and that court was free of interference and pressure from third parties, it would be an absolute certainty that Israel would be found guilty of war crimes. International law is crystal clear about targeting civilians and using certain type of ammunition against them, both of which have been perpetrated by Israel extensively, both in Gaza recently and elsewhere in the past.

    I think we both know how likely that outcome is.
    Aladdin wrote: »
    Completely agree. It does not help that one side is treated as terrorists and the other as the victims who don't ever get even a single word of mild criticism at diplomatic level.

    There’s always lots of words, both the EU itself and most of the countries in the EU criticised Israel, the problem is that’s all it is, there aren’t any actions.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    budda wrote: »
    Israel kills civilians so Hamas does the same, they are both in the wrong and both need to be slapped and told to grow up.

    Agree but then who slaps them? Us? We are giving them the 'toys' so to speak. The UN has said some pretty harsh words but they've fallen on deaf ears. Hamas have asked for international condemnation of Israel, and Israel has just said to the world "this is an internal matter and we will see to it".

    It's tricky because I believe we are unnervingly close to a breakthrough. The problem though is political posturing, the ultimate solution will largely be influenced by the proportional political positions of each. I mean, that's how annexation occurs isn't it, you march an army into their parliament and 'negotiate' a deal that in exchange for your life gives them the country.

    There is still this idea that Israel is 'untouchable' and until that paradigm is broken (I just wanted to use that word :p) we can't get everything onto the table and start actually drawing up this two state solution. The Pre 1967 solutions are not ideal but a land-for-land trade could work. However that would mean Israel would need to give up some of Jerasulem, and politically they can't do that - just far too many Zionists who believe it is theirs by right with the power to vote.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    Agree but then who slaps them? Us? We are giving them the 'toys' so to speak. The UN has said some pretty harsh words but they've fallen on deaf ears. Hamas have asked for international condemnation of Israel, and Israel has just said to the world "this is an internal matter and we will see to it".

    It's tricky because I believe we are unnervingly close to a breakthrough. The problem though is political posturing, the ultimate solution will largely be influenced by the proportional political positions of each. I mean, that's how annexation occurs isn't it, you march an army into their parliament and 'negotiate' a deal that in exchange for your life gives them the country.

    There is still this idea that Israel is 'untouchable' and until that paradigm is broken (I just wanted to use that word :p) we can't get everything onto the table and start actually drawing up this two state solution. The Pre 1967 solutions are not ideal but a land-for-land trade could work. However that would mean Israel would need to give up some of Jerasulem, and politically they can't do that - just far too many Zionists who believe it is theirs by right with the power to vote.

    Well its not really us given Israel billions of dollars in weapons, its the US. But even that isnt as straight forward as it really sounds, its very largely done to subsidise the US arms industry, same as the money that goes to Egypt and Colombia, its righ fenced so they have to spend it on US weapons. Bingo the swing states such as Florida have more jobs and they like the government.

    Syria and Iran are largely behind arming Hamas, but they probably would get support from elsewhere if that dried up.

    In short though I really dont think there is a great deal anyone can do, both sides seem happy to go on repeating the same stupid mistakes that have been made in that part of the world for thousands of years.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    There have been periods of stability, but then someone wants to go totalitarian and it all goes tits up. I mean, in the Crusades when everywhere was swapping hands, Jerusalem was (at least at times) open for all people of all faiths from wherever to make a pilgrimage. These days.. it depends what stamps you have on your passport.

    My sig has the answer (Desmund Tutu, not the other two heh).
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