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Some eugenics to sort out those individuals may be in order. Seriously how fucked up does someone need to be believe that women want to be raped?
Sorry, where did you get the evidence for this, and what makes you think that gangs would have a broader view of rape?
If that were the case then the campaign should be "this is not an invitation to have sex with me", because if the problem is men don't realise that they are actually committing rape then telling them not to rape won't make a blind bit of difference.
Doesn't have the same ring to it though. Martin_Bashir: I suspect the reasoning is based on empirical observatoin; people in poorer and less educated communities would seem to commit rape more often. Whether this is a valid conclusion I dunno... just like I said earlier we could tread on dodgy ground if we make the conclusion that incidents of rape tend to go up with certain ethnic groupings as well and you have to be really careful about the sorts of messages you are sending out with these kind of campaigns, and can't just naively shout from the roofs "don't do this, it's bad".
I mean, you can - but it may be less-productive-that-it-would-be if these issues were thought through.
I'm not sure if you're understanding me, (or else I'm not understanding you given you're question on I would think gangs have a broader view of rape).
What I was saying is in response to Shyboy's comments about how the middle-class view rape, and I was saying that many of the middle class wouldn't view it as rape if the woman was in volunatarily in bed naked with the man voluntarily. I don't have any evidence apart from an anecdotal view (though given that juries aren't made up of gang members and the pitifully low conviction rate for rape I wouldn't say I was far out on many people's attitudes).
Ah right, sorry I thought you were implying that there was an explicit class difference in the sense that gangs view all sexual violence as permissable, whereas the middle classes view sexual violence only as such when there is what would be termed overt violence involved.
I'm still not entirely sure that this is true though, I mean I think that if a man forcibly carried on even if the two were just in bed cuddling, most of the middle class people I know at least, would not think that was acceptable.
That why I said 'seem' because it's pretty much based on people's own experiences. I have no idea if the actual statistics / reality indicate any socioeconomic factors with particular relation to rape (though there is a strong link with crime in general so not sure how that ties in).
Martin- my argument throughout the thread was that the rhetoric didn't seem to match up with my own experiences and the other people in the thread argued it's because I just don't know the right people. According to some of the rhetoric, 50% of people think rape is permissable in some situation.
Of course if you start to look into it a bit more it throws some questions up when the same study indicates (I think, from memory now) all but 3% of people think it's completely uncompromisingly wrong to put pressure on someone to have sex. My conjecture was that the statistics were being misrepresented and that actually some respondents may have thought 'if a woman is drunk she needs to take responsibility not to be in vulnerable situations' (which you could then guess would go on as .... 'but in no way is she culpable if she's raped'). - I started thinking along this line because in my own experience I have never met anyone who has said rape is ok.
Furthermore if that was the case that they were misrepresented for the sake of an ad campaign (not the first time it's happened afterall, considering that people in charge of the ad campaign and especially the agents that work for them i.e. publicists will be solely concerned with getting the biggest impact posible, statistics are just a 'tool' and only compelling statistics would be used.. theoretically) - then they are doing an injustice in some sense that it *may* make men feel like they're being scapegoated. Although I did say it had achieved it's aim in making people talk about it, which some would argue is the point (ends justify means etc.).