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So the BBC is left-wing and 'anti'-Israeli', is it??

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Comments

  • SkiveSkive No discipline. No morality. No respect. New ForestPosts: 15,207 Skive's The Limit
    I take it this is the appeal.
    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=c4bHHCXsf-c
    Yesterday is history
    Tomorrow is a mystery
    But today is a gift
    That’s why it’s call the present
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Skive wrote: »
    I take it this is the appeal.
    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=c4bHHCXsf-c

    Chilling.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I would argue that Israel gets a disproportionate amount of criticism, I haven't seen many marches about Sri Lanka recently or the Congo.
    That would be mainly because of two reasons:

    - the Middle East conflict, rightly or wrongly, gets far more media attention and as such people are far more aware of it

    - the perceived over-criticism Israel gets from ordinary people is only the consequence of it being given carte blanche to do pretty much the fuck it wants at diplomatic levels, with no consequences whatsoever. Nations have been bombed for far less. This one doesn't even get a a word of criticism from our fair leaders, let alone threats of economic sanctions or anything else.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You're right about the media coverage, wrong about nations getting bombed for less (or at least I can think of lot's of places where much worse has gone on without any international action and those places I can think of getting bombed was either not due to humanitarian concerns or in the case of Bos, much, much, much worse)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Maybe so (or maybe not- Saddam Hussein might have disagreed had he still be alive). But the case remains that Israel remains pretty much unique in modern history as the only nation outside the big powers that has enjoyed a virtual immunity to do anything it pleases in breach of international law without fear of consequences for more than 40 years.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    Maybe so (or maybe not- Saddam Hussein might have disagreed had he still be alive). But the case remains that Israel remains pretty much unique in modern history as the only nation outside the big powers that has enjoyed a virtual immunity to do anything it pleases in breach of international law without fear of consequences for more than 40 years.

    We didn't go in for humanitarian reasons though. if Saddam had allowed in weapons inspectors he could have continued killing the Kurds et al with impunity - because frankly we did fuck all useful in 1991 to protect the Marsh Arabs.

    Sri Lanka continually ignores the UN, we've done fuck all about the Congo, and we left Rwanda until it was too late, nor does any world attention focus on the Western Sahara, nothing useful has been done in Algeria and Turkey seems to continually pop into its neighbous for a dig at the Kurds (and vice versa). Even Somlia (the suffering there being much worse than Gaza) wasn't a deleiberate attempt to try and knock out the militia, but a peacekeeping operation gone wrong.

    There's nothing that I've seen in Gaza which hasn't happened in a hundred wars before and will happen in a hundred wars in the future. There's never been a clean war and never will be
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    We didn't go in for humanitarian reasons though. if Saddam had allowed in weapons inspectors he could have continued killing the Kurds et al with impunity - because frankly we did fuck all useful in 1991 to protect the Marsh Arabs.
    Saddam had allowed in the inspectors and in fact they were set to report Iraq was WMD-free, which is why the US and Britain gave them notice to leave as they were going to attack.

    Don't want to derail the thread with the Iraq war as it could go on forever, but there are a number of intriguing similarities: oppresion of an entire people, war crimes, human rights abuses, illegal land appropriation, and last but not least WMDs.
    Sri Lanka continually ignores the UN, we've done fuck all about the Congo, and we left Rwanda until it was too late, nor does any world attention focus on the Western Sahara, nothing useful has been done in Algeria and Turkey seems to continually pop into its neighbous for a dig at the Kurds (and vice versa). Even Somlia (the suffering there being much worse than Gaza) wasn't a deleiberate attempt to try and knock out the militia, but a peacekeeping operation gone wrong.

    There's nothing that I've seen in Gaza which hasn't happened in a hundred wars before and will happen in a hundred wars in the future. There's never been a clean war and never will be
    But some wars are dirtier and others. And we tend to impose sanctions or at the very least threaten them to those regimes found to be commiting illegal acts.

    Israel has been in breach of several international laws pretty much continuously for several decades. That it continues to escape punishment or even condemnation is an insult, a disgraceful injustice and a sad joke, and a betrayal of thousands of Palestinian civilians who in the future will continue to be targeted, see their homes destroyed, their water and energy cut off as collective punishment, their land taken from them and their loved ones horribly burnt and disfigured for life by the use of illegal-as-fuck chemicals.

    Many nations manage to wage war without, on the whole, commiting war crimes and breaking international law. Even if we fully agree with Israel's right to wage war there is not a single valid reason why we continue to allow it to commit unjustifiable and illegal acts.

    If, for instance, we were to threaten with diplomatic or economic sanctions if Israel ever uses white phosporous on the Palestinian population again, something that is illegal and possibly a war crime, they might think twice before doing it again in the future. That wouldn't prevent them from bombing Gaza just like they did anyway, so everyone's happy- apart from the Palestinians perhaps.

    That we do absolutely nothing about it is a disgrace.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Israel has closed the border crossings into Gaza because of the the attack on the patrol, Israeli officials said, stopping the flow of aid supplies to Gaza's 1.5 million residents.

    isnt that the definition of collective punishment?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well that's been a cornerstone of the international condemnation of Israel since the blockade began (which, incidentally, came in BEFORE Hamas won the elections)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    isnt that the definition of collective punishment?


    Wouldn't the attack on the patrol be a definition of breaking the ceasefire?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Wouldn't the attack on the patrol be a definition of breaking the ceasefire?

    Yes it would, as would the targeted killings before that, and then the suicide bombings before that, and then the land grabs before that and the water restrictions...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »

    But some wars are dirtier and others. And we tend to impose sanctions or at the very least threaten them to those regimes found to be commiting illegal acts..

    No we don't - see my previous list. Some wars are dirtier, but this one isn't (okay its not the cleanest - but even the clean one like the Falklands were clean because of hardly any civilians and included both sides using white phosphorous as anti-personell, killing of prisoners, misuse of the red-cross, shooting of soldiers under the white flag, killing of downed aircrew, naplam etc, etc)
    Israel has been in breach of several international laws pretty much continuously for several decades. That it continues to escape punishment or even condemnation is an insult, a disgraceful injustice and a sad joke, and a betrayal of thousands of Palestinian civilians who in the future will continue to be targeted, see their homes destroyed, their water and energy cut off as collective punishment, their land taken from them and their loved ones horribly burnt and disfigured for life by the use of illegal-as-fuck chemicals.

    So has everyone. WP is a pretty commonly used to clear trenches and buildings.
    Many nations manage to wage war without, on the whole, commiting war crimes and breaking international law. Even if we fully agree with Israel's right to wage war there is not a single valid reason why we continue to allow it to commit unjustifiable and illegal acts.

    Great you'll find it easy to name cases. I can't think of any comparable war which hasn't had major breaches of war crimes. However, I can also think of a lot of cases where war crimes have taken place, which are worse than what went on in Gaza. Mass execution of prisoners by the Indians in Bangladesh (and probably by the Pakistanis as well), mass executions of tied up civilians by the Russians in Grozny (with enough evidence of gang-rape), rape as weapon of war in the Congo,
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yes it would, as would the targeted killings before that, and then the suicide bombings before that, and then the land grabs before that and the water restrictions...

    True - its a circular argument and I'm aware that for everytime you say 'they did this' other argue back, but 'they did this'.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    True, and I'm beginning to see something different emerging in Politics these days that's wider than this argument.

    The twentieth century was marked by a battle for ideological supremacy, whereas I think this one will be marked by a struggle to harmonise human interests with the challenges and realities of a globalised interdepedant world.

    I think we are going to start to see the whole shape of political discourse moving from ideology to general shared interests and pragmatism - Israel and Palestein I think is a clear example of the deadlock of right/wrong moralism in political settlements.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No we don't - see my previous list. Some wars are dirtier, but this one isn't (okay its not the cleanest - but even the clean one like the Falklands were clean because of hardly any civilians and included both sides using white phosphorous as anti-personell, killing of prisoners, misuse of the red-cross, shooting of soldiers under the white flag, killing of downed aircrew, naplam etc, etc)
    If you really think directing civilians into a building only to bomb it later, deliberate targeting of civilians, use of banned chemicals against civilians, illegal land appropriation, construction of Apartheid containment walls, movement restriciton, Collective Punishment such as water and energy cut offs, trade blockade, airspace blockade, complicity into bringing hundreds of thousands to the very verge of starvation or shooting of emergency services does not constitute 'dirty' fighting or war crimes, there really isn't any further point in us discussing anything.

    I didn't take you for a prejudice-blinded fanatic. It seems you might be one after all. More the pity.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru

    So has everyone. WP is a pretty commonly used to clear trenches and buildings.
    But not against fucking civilians in civilian areas, as it was extensively used in Gaza.

    Listen to yourself for fuck's sake. What will you be defending next?

    FFS... :rolleyes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    If you really think directing civilians into a building only to bomb it later, deliberate targeting of civilians, use of banned chemicals against civilians, illegal land appropriation, construction of Apartheid containment walls, movement restriciton, Collective Punishment such as water and energy cut offs, trade blockade, airspace blockade, complicity into bringing hundreds of thousands to the very verge of starvation or shooting of emergency services does not constitute 'dirty' fighting or war crimes, there really isn't any further point in us discussing anything.

    I didn't take you for a prejudice-blinded fanatic. It seems you might be one after all. More the pity.

    Aah I see - if we disagree with you we become prejudice blinded fanatics, when I thought I was just disagreeing with your romantic view of war and pointing out what's happening is actually pretty normal in fighting in built up areas.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    But not against fucking civilians in civilian areas, as it was extensively used in Gaza.

    Listen to yourself for fuck's sake. What will you be defending next?

    FFS... :rolleyes:

    What bit of the word building did you misunderstand. Its definetely was used by both India and Pakistan in border clashes, almost certainly by Russia in Grozny.

    I'm not particually defending it by the way (though frankly if it was the choice between one of my blokes screaming as we tried to hold in his gut or chucking a WP into a building - the WP would go in), but pointing out that your romantic views are complete crap and that there's nothing particually new about what's going on in Gaza.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aah I see - if we disagree with you we become prejudice blinded fanatics, when I thought I was just disagreeing with your romantic view of war and pointing out what's happening is actually pretty normal in fighting in built up areas.
    Not quite. You're suggesting Israel's behaviour is not out of the ordinary. It is. Certainly today, when we have had conventions and laws in place for more than half a century to try to prevent the kind of atrocities Israel is just pepetrating.

    Even the USA had the decency, for instance, not to carpet bomb entire neighbourhoods of Belgrade, drop chemicals illegally onto its citizens or subject its population to fascist concentration camp-like conditions for years.

    Just because atrocities are sometimes commited does not mean we should do nothing about it. Is that what you're suggesting? Because then I don't see anything wrong with Hamas firing rockets at Israeli citizens either.

    Fact: Israel has commited numerous war crimes over the years. It should be brought into account for them, not let off without even a word of condemnation.

    Incidentally, the fanatism bit was directed at your attempting to justify the use of WP in Gaza. You've always come across as an intelligent person. You must therefore be aware, unless you've been living in Mars for the last few weeks, that Israel used it extensively on civilian areas full of, er, nothing but civilians without any possible military justification for it. There are countless reports of horrifying burns on scores of men, women and children. And plenty of photographic evidence too.

    So the 'WP is commonly used to clear bridges and buildings' comment sounds either extraordinarily naive, or sick and disturbing. Because you know perfectly well that is not how or why it was used. At all.

    Is it really that hard to admit Israel has commited a number of unspeakable atrocities that regardless of its war with Hamas they can never be justified or tolerated?

    You could support Israel's wars and campaigns and at the same time demand atrocities are not commited, you know. Plenty of people manage it, including many Jewish groups and individuals.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Just in case you couldn't find any info on the use of WP by Israel, I have done it for you.


    Israel has opened an investigation into allegations that it used white phosphorus munitions to shell civilian districts of Gaza.

    Human rights activists had accused Israel of violating international law by bombarding built-up areas with the incendiary material in Operation Cast Lead. Palestinian hospitals treated dozens of Gazans with wounds consistent with use of the weapon.

    Israeli newspapers reports said a reserve paratroop brigade was the focus of the probe after it fired 20 artillery shells at densely populated parts of northern Gaza, including a United Nations compound.

    Army officials confirmed that an investigation was under way but would not reveal its scope.

    Under international law white phosphorus is permitted to create a smokescreen on an open battlefield, but it is banned in built-up areas.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/4308666/Israel-opens-investigation-into-white-phosphorus-use.html



    Doctors in Gaza described today how they had struggled to treat dozens of patients with terrible and unusually deadly burns consistent with white phosphorus weapons, during Israel's three-week war in Gaza.

    Nafiz Abu Shabaan, head of the burns unit at Shifa hospital and the most senior burns surgeon in Gaza, said 60 to 70 patients had died in his unit during the war from severe burns that were unlike any injury he had previously seen.

    Patients with only relatively small burn injuries, which ought to be survivable, were dying unexpectedly.

    His account, along with evidence from survivors, corroborates mounting evidence from groups such as Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International that the Israeli military fired phosphorus shells into populated areas of Gaza in direct violation of international humanitarian law. Amnesty said it believes Israel is guilty of a war crime.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/21/gaza-phosphorus-israel




    1.jpg





    So... are you now prepared to admit your earlier statement is wrong and that Israel has indeed violated international law and used WP illegally on Palestinian civilians? Or do you still claim Israel's actions were justified?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm not particually defending it by the way (though frankly if it was the choice between one of my blokes screaming as we tried to hold in his gut or chucking a WP into a building - the WP would go in), but pointing out that your romantic views are complete crap and that there's nothing particually new about what's going on in Gaza.

    I can accept that you're going to be coming at this from a different and probably more experienced angle than some of us (certainly me), and that this isn't out of the ordinary in terms of what HAS happened, but we need to keep a separation of 'is' and 'ought' here.

    The picture above is clear evidence that Israel has used WP in built up areas, in broadsword manner, in violation of international arms treaties. The fact that this has happened elsewhere does not make it any more acceptable, less shocking, or less outrageous but the reverse.

    I might have said this before but a friend of mine who did officer training told me a story about one of his commanders having to tell a soldier in the field in Afghanistan (I think it was) to cut off a large chunk of his pal's face because the WP was about to burn into his brain and could not be extinguished.

    The indiscriminate use of such a weapon, in the manner pictured above, is clearly wrong - unless I am missing something, that doesn't look like room clearance.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Indeed. We all know Hamas-run institutions have similar fanatics and they get the condemnation they deserve, but we should also condemn similar loonies on the other side.

    There really isn't much hope for that region at the moment. For as long as the violence continues people who would otherwise live normal lives can be brain-washed into fanatism- or driven into it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    And what Israeli soldiers think:

    http://www.shovrimshtika.org/index_e.asp
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