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http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=c4bHHCXsf-c
Chilling.
- the Middle East conflict, rightly or wrongly, gets far more media attention and as such people are far more aware of it
- the perceived over-criticism Israel gets from ordinary people is only the consequence of it being given carte blanche to do pretty much the fuck it wants at diplomatic levels, with no consequences whatsoever. Nations have been bombed for far less. This one doesn't even get a a word of criticism from our fair leaders, let alone threats of economic sanctions or anything else.
We didn't go in for humanitarian reasons though. if Saddam had allowed in weapons inspectors he could have continued killing the Kurds et al with impunity - because frankly we did fuck all useful in 1991 to protect the Marsh Arabs.
Sri Lanka continually ignores the UN, we've done fuck all about the Congo, and we left Rwanda until it was too late, nor does any world attention focus on the Western Sahara, nothing useful has been done in Algeria and Turkey seems to continually pop into its neighbous for a dig at the Kurds (and vice versa). Even Somlia (the suffering there being much worse than Gaza) wasn't a deleiberate attempt to try and knock out the militia, but a peacekeeping operation gone wrong.
There's nothing that I've seen in Gaza which hasn't happened in a hundred wars before and will happen in a hundred wars in the future. There's never been a clean war and never will be
Don't want to derail the thread with the Iraq war as it could go on forever, but there are a number of intriguing similarities: oppresion of an entire people, war crimes, human rights abuses, illegal land appropriation, and last but not least WMDs.
But some wars are dirtier and others. And we tend to impose sanctions or at the very least threaten them to those regimes found to be commiting illegal acts.
Israel has been in breach of several international laws pretty much continuously for several decades. That it continues to escape punishment or even condemnation is an insult, a disgraceful injustice and a sad joke, and a betrayal of thousands of Palestinian civilians who in the future will continue to be targeted, see their homes destroyed, their water and energy cut off as collective punishment, their land taken from them and their loved ones horribly burnt and disfigured for life by the use of illegal-as-fuck chemicals.
Many nations manage to wage war without, on the whole, commiting war crimes and breaking international law. Even if we fully agree with Israel's right to wage war there is not a single valid reason why we continue to allow it to commit unjustifiable and illegal acts.
If, for instance, we were to threaten with diplomatic or economic sanctions if Israel ever uses white phosporous on the Palestinian population again, something that is illegal and possibly a war crime, they might think twice before doing it again in the future. That wouldn't prevent them from bombing Gaza just like they did anyway, so everyone's happy- apart from the Palestinians perhaps.
That we do absolutely nothing about it is a disgrace.
isnt that the definition of collective punishment?
Wouldn't the attack on the patrol be a definition of breaking the ceasefire?
Yes it would, as would the targeted killings before that, and then the suicide bombings before that, and then the land grabs before that and the water restrictions...
No we don't - see my previous list. Some wars are dirtier, but this one isn't (okay its not the cleanest - but even the clean one like the Falklands were clean because of hardly any civilians and included both sides using white phosphorous as anti-personell, killing of prisoners, misuse of the red-cross, shooting of soldiers under the white flag, killing of downed aircrew, naplam etc, etc)
So has everyone. WP is a pretty commonly used to clear trenches and buildings.
Great you'll find it easy to name cases. I can't think of any comparable war which hasn't had major breaches of war crimes. However, I can also think of a lot of cases where war crimes have taken place, which are worse than what went on in Gaza. Mass execution of prisoners by the Indians in Bangladesh (and probably by the Pakistanis as well), mass executions of tied up civilians by the Russians in Grozny (with enough evidence of gang-rape), rape as weapon of war in the Congo,
True - its a circular argument and I'm aware that for everytime you say 'they did this' other argue back, but 'they did this'.
The twentieth century was marked by a battle for ideological supremacy, whereas I think this one will be marked by a struggle to harmonise human interests with the challenges and realities of a globalised interdepedant world.
I think we are going to start to see the whole shape of political discourse moving from ideology to general shared interests and pragmatism - Israel and Palestein I think is a clear example of the deadlock of right/wrong moralism in political settlements.
I didn't take you for a prejudice-blinded fanatic. It seems you might be one after all. More the pity.
Listen to yourself for fuck's sake. What will you be defending next?
FFS... :rolleyes:
Aah I see - if we disagree with you we become prejudice blinded fanatics, when I thought I was just disagreeing with your romantic view of war and pointing out what's happening is actually pretty normal in fighting in built up areas.
What bit of the word building did you misunderstand. Its definetely was used by both India and Pakistan in border clashes, almost certainly by Russia in Grozny.
I'm not particually defending it by the way (though frankly if it was the choice between one of my blokes screaming as we tried to hold in his gut or chucking a WP into a building - the WP would go in), but pointing out that your romantic views are complete crap and that there's nothing particually new about what's going on in Gaza.
Even the USA had the decency, for instance, not to carpet bomb entire neighbourhoods of Belgrade, drop chemicals illegally onto its citizens or subject its population to fascist concentration camp-like conditions for years.
Just because atrocities are sometimes commited does not mean we should do nothing about it. Is that what you're suggesting? Because then I don't see anything wrong with Hamas firing rockets at Israeli citizens either.
Fact: Israel has commited numerous war crimes over the years. It should be brought into account for them, not let off without even a word of condemnation.
Incidentally, the fanatism bit was directed at your attempting to justify the use of WP in Gaza. You've always come across as an intelligent person. You must therefore be aware, unless you've been living in Mars for the last few weeks, that Israel used it extensively on civilian areas full of, er, nothing but civilians without any possible military justification for it. There are countless reports of horrifying burns on scores of men, women and children. And plenty of photographic evidence too.
So the 'WP is commonly used to clear bridges and buildings' comment sounds either extraordinarily naive, or sick and disturbing. Because you know perfectly well that is not how or why it was used. At all.
Is it really that hard to admit Israel has commited a number of unspeakable atrocities that regardless of its war with Hamas they can never be justified or tolerated?
You could support Israel's wars and campaigns and at the same time demand atrocities are not commited, you know. Plenty of people manage it, including many Jewish groups and individuals.
So... are you now prepared to admit your earlier statement is wrong and that Israel has indeed violated international law and used WP illegally on Palestinian civilians? Or do you still claim Israel's actions were justified?
I can accept that you're going to be coming at this from a different and probably more experienced angle than some of us (certainly me), and that this isn't out of the ordinary in terms of what HAS happened, but we need to keep a separation of 'is' and 'ought' here.
The picture above is clear evidence that Israel has used WP in built up areas, in broadsword manner, in violation of international arms treaties. The fact that this has happened elsewhere does not make it any more acceptable, less shocking, or less outrageous but the reverse.
I might have said this before but a friend of mine who did officer training told me a story about one of his commanders having to tell a soldier in the field in Afghanistan (I think it was) to cut off a large chunk of his pal's face because the WP was about to burn into his brain and could not be extinguished.
The indiscriminate use of such a weapon, in the manner pictured above, is clearly wrong - unless I am missing something, that doesn't look like room clearance.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/army-rabbi-gave-out-hate-leaflet-to-troops-1516805.html
There really isn't much hope for that region at the moment. For as long as the violence continues people who would otherwise live normal lives can be brain-washed into fanatism- or driven into it.
http://www.shovrimshtika.org/index_e.asp