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Ch4's Alternative Christmas Speech
Former Member
Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
So what do you think of Channel 4's Alternative Christmas Speech and the media uproar?
I watched most of it online with subtitles and if the subtitles are accurate then I have no problem with most of what was said and most of what was said was very nice
I think it's a shame every man and his dog are jumping on the bandwagon to condemn CH4's choice rather then actually looking at what was said in the speech and take it at face value.
I've yet to see one report criticizing anything that was said in the speech but every single report is simply condemning who said it.
If the same speech had been read out by Obama, or someone else of similar standing then the reporting would be totally different.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=X4eMbdzbq0Q
I watched most of it online with subtitles and if the subtitles are accurate then I have no problem with most of what was said and most of what was said was very nice
I think it's a shame every man and his dog are jumping on the bandwagon to condemn CH4's choice rather then actually looking at what was said in the speech and take it at face value.
I've yet to see one report criticizing anything that was said in the speech but every single report is simply condemning who said it.
If the same speech had been read out by Obama, or someone else of similar standing then the reporting would be totally different.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=X4eMbdzbq0Q
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Comments
He can preach peace all he wants, but in his case I think it is fair to say that actions speak louder than words.
It strikes me as naive to decontextualise his 'christmas message' from his person.
That said, I am not sure which camp I belong to regarding whether he should be given a platform on channel 4 or not.
His time in office and his actions has lead to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people and something like 2 million people in Iraq fleeing their own country ..
Who are you to say it's a piss take?
Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet of God.
What does his views on gays or the holocaust have to do with wishing Christians a Happy Christmas?
Neither Obama or George W Bush supports Gay Marriages. People are allowed their opinions on many different issues what do those issues have to do with his Christmas message?
It would seem to me he's extending an olive branch to the people in the western world . if you think it's a piss take then bring in example of issues that relate to Christianity, Jesus, Christmas and related topics not unrelated topics.
Given the list below of previous people to give an alternative Christmas Message I think it's more important to hear the views of the leader of a nation of some 70 million people then Ali G, Sharon Osbourne, a cartoon Character, TV Chef or a couple from Wife Swap for example
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Christmas_Message#List_of_Alternative_message_presenters
List of Alternative message presenters
* 1993 - Quentin Crisp
* 1994 - Rev Jesse Jackson
* 1995 - Brigitte Bardot
* 1996 - Rory Bremner (as Diana, Princess of Wales)
* 1997 - Margaret Gibney, a Belfast schoolgirl broadcast a plea for peace in Northern Ireland
* 1998 - Doreen Lawrence and Neville Lawrence, parents of Stephen Lawrence
* 1999 - Ali G
* 2000 - Helen Jeffries, mother of a CJD victim
* 2001 - Genelle Guzman, World Trade Center terrorist attacks survivor
* 2002 - Sharon Osbourne
* 2003 - Barry and Michelle Seabourn, a Merseyside couple who appeared on Channel 4 reality show Wife Swap.
* 2004 - Marge Simpson
* 2005 - Jamie Oliver
* 2006 - Khadija Ravat[7]
* 2007 - Major Andrew Stockton, a British soldier who lost his arm fighting in Afghanistan.
* 2008 - Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, president of Iran [8]
I don't really get what you are trying to get at.
If Channel 4 were that bothered about Christianity, Jesus, Christmas etc. they would not have brough Ahmedinejahd in - they would have brought in a priest or someone of a similar position.
They brought in a controversial political figure on purpose, and when he talks about Jesus, peace, and brotherhood, people will contextualise it with his usual conduct and rhetoric.
Frankly, when contrasting his christmas message of peace and prosperity with the fact that on the 24th of December 4 people were hanged in Iran, then I doubt his intentions. Likewise I doubt his intentions when I know of so many people who are exile Iranians for the reason that they could not live freely in Iran with their political convictions. Is that a message of peace when people cannot live in their homecountry due to their beliefs and ideologies?
All of this is not unrelated. It's a political game, and as said it is naive to assume that he did this of the goodness of his heart as he concerned with wishing Christians in Britain a merry christmas.
I don't think she is saying Bush would be.
Let's turn the question on you then. Would you have been happy to see Robert Mugabe give the alternative message, if he hadn't said anything controversial?
Just because Ahmadinejad didn't say anything controversial on this occasion doesn't mean that he is not a vile, violent, religious bigot that should not have been given the opportunity to come across as some sort of 'acceptable' face of an alternative Christmas.
I've seen links like this they say more then 4 people were hung on the 24th .. according to this 9 convicted murderers were hung on that day
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3643648,00.html
So what exactly has that got to do with his Christmas message, that was probably recorded well in advance so it could be vetted, translated, etc.??
I'm pretty sure George Bush doesn't oversee every single execution carried out in the USA of convicted murderers .. so what is your point??
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad - Alternative Christmas Message
25th December 2008
"In the Name of God the Compassionate, the Merciful.
Upon the anniversary of the birth of Jesus, Son of Mary, the Word of God, the Messenger of mercy, I would like to congratulate the followers of Abrahamic faiths, especially the followers of Jesus Christ, and the people of Britain.
The Almighty created the universe for human beings and human beings for Himself.
He created every human being with the ability to reach the heights of perfection. He called on man to make every effort to live a good life in this world and to work to achieve his everlasting life.
On this difficult and challenging journey of man from dust to the divine, He did not leave humanity to its own devices. He chose from those He created the most excellent as His Prophets to guide humanity.
All Prophets called for the worship of God, for love and brotherhood, for the establishment of justice and for love in human society. Jesus, the Son of Mary, is the standard-bearer of justice, of love for our fellow human beings, of the fight against tyranny, discrimination and injustice.
All the problems that have bedevilled humanity throughout the ages came about because humanity followed an evil path and disregarded the message of the Prophets.
Now as human society faces a myriad of problems and a succession of complex crises, the root causes can be found in humanity's rejection of that message, in particular the indifference of some governments and powers towards the teachings of the divine Prophets, especially those of Jesus Christ.
The crises in society, the family, morality, politics, security and the economy which have made life hard for humanity and continue to put great pressure on all nations have come about because the Prophets have been forgotten, the Almighty has been forgotten and some leaders are estranged from God.
If Christ were on earth today, undoubtedly He would stand with the people in opposition to bullying, ill-tempered and expansionist powers.
If Christ were on earth today, undoubtedly He would hoist the banner of justice and love for humanity to oppose warmongers, occupiers, terrorists and bullies the world over.
If Christ were on earth today, undoubtedly He would fight against the tyrannical policies of prevailing global economic and political systems, as He did in His lifetime. The solution to today's problems is a return to the call of the divine Prophets. The solution to these crises is to follow the Prophets - they were sent by the Almighty for the good of humanity.
Today, the general will of nations is calling for fundamental change. This is now taking place. Demands for change, demands for transformation, demands for a return to human values are fast becoming the foremost demands of the nations of the world. The response to these demands must be real and true. The prerequisite to this change is a change in goals, intentions and directions. If tyrannical goals are repackaged in an attractive and deceptive package and imposed on nations again, the people, awakened, will stand up against them.
Fortunately, today, as crises and despair multiply, a wave of hope is gathering momentum. Hope for a brighter future and hope for the establishment of justice, hope for real peace, hope for finding virtuous and pious rulers who love the people and want to serve them – and this is what the Almighty has promised.
We believe, Jesus Christ will return, together with one of the children of the revered Messenger of Islam and will lead the world to love, brotherhood and justice. The responsibility of all followers of Christ and Abrahamic faiths is to prepare the way for the fulfilment of this divine promise and the arrival of that joyful, shining and wonderful age. I hope that the collective will of nations will unite in the not too distant future and with the grace of the Almighty Lord, that shining age will come to rule the earth.
Once again, I congratulate one and all on the anniversary of the birth of Jesus Christ. I pray for the New Year to be a year of happiness, prosperity, peace and brotherhood for humanity. I wish you every success and happiness."
1) Care to give proof his speech was a lie? Maybe you're an expert in body language, voice pattern analysis, tell tale eye movements?
2) Care to give ACTUAL examples of why he's hypocritical and then
3) Give reasons why your reasons in point 2 cannot then be applied to every major world leader?
My point is, that these hangings and other ridiculous rules and decrees are not a one off. This man is the leader of one of the most freedom deprived places on earth, usually preaching war and conflict - so to be quite honest I am not going to sit down and see him mention words like Jesus and peace and then change my opinion about him
Though it is quite obvious that you are not going to change your opinion either - seems as if the man could have murdered a kid with his bare hands two seconds befor his speech, but because you found his words jolly then everything is apparently all good.
Point one and two have already been taken care of - number 3 that's maybe where you want to base your discussion, cause the above quite frankly seems to be a given. Even channel 4 haven't defended him or what he said to my awareness.
You mention past 'alternative' Christmas guests but none of those people (as far as I am aware) have blood on their hands as he does, none called for violence like he does, none support the subjugation of women as he does etc etc. Just because he gave an innocuous speech does not mean that he is now somehow acceptable.
Many of the past guests have had something really 'alternative' to say, which is the point of the whole address. Food for thought. He was pretty uncontroversial so why get to him to make the speech anyway? It was just a great big Channel 4 gimmick.
I think Peter Tatchell has it pretty much bang on - here
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/dec/27/iran-channel4
I think that pretty much covers it.
However that is a moot point as I fear Wendy and many others have fallen into the trap Channel 4 had laid by doing this. Ultimately it's just a stunt rather than a serious attempt at providing an alternative view. Win-win situation for them as they are seen as being edgy and guardians of freedom of speech, while benefiting from the publicity generated by those offended by the broadcast. Best response is to ignore it and see it as the gimmick it is, rather than complimenting C4 for the brave standing they have taken, or being wound up by it and give it more importance than it has.
If you re-read my prior responses you will see that I wrote that it is all a political game - I am well aware of the publicity Channel 4 is generating through this.
However it is important to question these things rather than keep stum, otherwise you are just laying the foundation for Mugabe to give next years alternative speech.
The media has a big role to play regarding what the public mind occupies itself with and how the public is presented certain issues - some people like DG decided that since Ahmedinjahd only spoke of peace and brotherhood then that is all we should focus on. Personally, that is a mindset that I would like to avoid manifesting itself in society.
By raising my voice (and many others along me as is evident by this thread) and explaining why we should question Ahmedinejahd being given such an opportunity, I hope that some people will actually say, 'hang on, why the fuck is this bastard allowed to talk about peace and prosperity, when he has NO track record whatsoever on these issues'.
From all the evidence available, neither did Jesus. Quite the opposite actually.
Some have already been mentioned.
The one that springs to mind for me is the fact that he speaks of love, justice and brotherhood in human society. He speaks of happiness, prosperity, and peace for humanity, and the fight against tyranny, discrimination and injustice.
In the meantime, this summer the Iranian parliament voted in favour of a draft bill which would codify the death penalty for any male Iranian who leaves his Islamic faith. Even if they convert to Christianity, which is one of the Abrahamic faiths that Mr Ahmadinejad seems to be speaking so respectfully towards.
Yes it’s true that Muslims respect Jesus as a prophet, but whether they respect “Christianity” as a religion is a different matter. The only Jesus he cares about is the one depicted in the Quran.
First give me the name of another major world leader, and then I will tell you whether my response in point 2 can be applied to them.
Whether it can or can’t be applied to them is irrelevant though. We are discussing Ahmadinejad in this thread. If someone like Mugabe did a Christmas speech that I found hypocritical then I’d think the same thing about him.