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Please bail us out, say Jaguar...

This has been in the news the last couple of days. It's claimed that the car industry is going through tumultuous times right now - and they certainly are. The first car company to come to the Government to ask cap in hand for a loan is Jaguar. They make expensive cars that no one currently wants to buy, (though government ministers certainly seem to like them) and is owned by an Indian company.

Now as much as I want to sympathise with anyone who has to go to Lord Mandelsnake for money - he who lied on a mortgage application form, let's not forget - I can't help but want to tell them to fuck off. Jaguar is currently owned by Tata, an Indian company. Today, they've announcecd that they are going to sponsor Ferrari's Grand Prix team. So they've got the money to sponsor a team in a massively expensive sport - but they're also claiming that Jaguar doesn't have any money either. Just how thick do these bastards think we are? Pretty much every argument put forward in favour of this bail-out collapses when put under any scrutiny. Apparently, 16,000 jobs will be lost if the company goes under. Really? 27,000 workers at Woolworths are going to lose their jobs in the next two to three weeks, yet Crash Gordon isn't coming to their rescue. It's claimed that Jaguar are innovators in their field, doing a lot of research and development in the motor industry. And why couldn't a rival manufacturer continue the work?

I'd like to think that Jaguar will be told to get the money from their rich friends in Tata. But they won't when you consider this government's record. Back in April 2005, during a General Election campaign, MG Rover was in the news. Tony Blair, Macavity and the local Labour MP visited trade union offices in Birmingham and said there might be a future for the company. Less than 48 hours later, MG Rover announced they'd received a loan from the Government - almost certainly because local Labour MPs would have suffered if news of job losses were made during an election campaign. And, of course, there is the news today that Dubya has just announced an £11.6billion dollar rescue package for troubled carmakers General Motors and Chrysler. I somehow suspect that the cheque for Jaguar is already in the post...

What do you all reckon?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jaguar/Land Rover are important and need protecting but the British govt can't be in the business of bailing out foreign firms. Jaguar/Land Rover should be temporarily re-nationalised and then privatised in the future when the economy's looking up.

    Renault has been getting public money for years.. Britain won't have any industry left if the free marketers get their way... And wasn't it their kind of thinking that got us into this mess in the first place?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I wouldn't bail Jaguar out, let em fail. I certainly wouldnt be bailing Woolworths out either.

    To be fair, there are very few companies I think should be bailed out with taxpayers money- regardless of the job losses.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    :yes:

    if you can't compete you just go under. The world's got too many car manufacturers, better that we stick to what we're good at (which obviously isn't making cars).

    But to answer Dis's point - no, we won't loose our manufacturing industry, we'll just move to a more efficient one based on high tech, rather than the old heavy industry. If the state protectioners had their way we wouldn't have repealed the Corn Laws.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Calvin wrote: »
    I wouldn't bail Jaguar out, let em fail. I certainly wouldnt be bailing Woolworths out either.

    To be fair, there are very few companies I think should be bailed out with taxpayers money- regardless of the job losses.
    Gotta agree with that.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    :yes:

    if you can't compete you just go under. The world's got too many car manufacturers, better that we stick to what we're good at (which obviously isn't making cars).
    Not good at making cars? I agree that we shouldn't be giving money to a company owned by a corporation that made billions last year, but to suggest that a global downturn affecting every car manufacturer means that Jaguar and Land Rover are poor car makers is ridiculous. Both make some of the most advanced cars in their particular markets (Jaguar's diesel engines and aluminium bodies are class-leading pieces of technology, as is pretty much everything on a Range Rover). Tata didn't buy them for no reason, nor did they buy them on the cheap. Land Rover were making healthy profits at the time. Jaguar weren't, but there's obviously a lot of potential in that company. Rover were shit for a long time before they went under. Both of these companies make some of the best cars in their class, but have just been affected by a global drop in demand for cars (35% at the last count, I think). But even Toyota are suffering in that respect.

    The one thing I would say is that it's very easy to say that Land Rover and Jaguar are obviously not good enough to compete in a free market. But how is it a free market any more? How can we say that Jaguar by itself versus General Motors plus the US taxpayer in any way represents fair competition? If every other country is going to adopt protectionist policies to safeguard their motoring industry, then how is the UK government doing differently going to result in the companies that really deserve to survive based on the quality of their products and sustainability of their business model, being the ones that are left?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Not good at making cars? I agree that we shouldn't be giving money to a company owned by a corporation that made billions last year, but to suggest that a global downturn affecting every car manufacturer means that Jaguar and Land Rover are poor car makers is ridiculous. Both make some of the most advanced cars in their particular markets (Jaguar's diesel engines and aluminium bodies are class-leading pieces of technology, as is pretty much everything on a Range Rover). Tata didn't buy them for no reason, nor did they buy them on the cheap. Land Rover were making healthy profits at the time. Jaguar weren't, but there's obviously a lot of potential in that company. Rover were shit for a long time before they went under. Both of these companies make some of the best cars in their class, but have just been affected by a global drop in demand for cars (35% at the last count, I think). But even Toyota are suffering in that respect.

    The one thing I would say is that it's very easy to say that Land Rover and Jaguar are obviously not good enough to compete in a free market. But how is it a free market any more? How can we say that Jaguar by itself versus General Motors plus the US taxpayer in any way represents fair competition? If every other country is going to adopt protectionist policies to safeguard their motoring industry, then how is the UK government doing differently going to result in the companies that really deserve to survive based on the quality of their products and sustainability of their business model, being the ones that are left?

    Well the not good at making cars is based on our long term performance, though I'd agree we do have some specialist niches (which will then survive). But... there are too many cars being made for the market and it's going to get worse (recession or not) as China and India enter the market cheaply.

    If other countries want to protect particular industries it's their choice. Protectionism doesn't actually help you provide a better quality product or look for cheaper ways to produce it, so whilst in the short term it might help you shift cars, in the long term you're going to find yourself left behind (and need more protection).

    Rather than protectionism the Government would be better putting its money into skills or cutting corporation tax, better that we have lots of people who can design quality, fuel efficient engines than lots of less well paid people making them inefficiently.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Calvin wrote: »
    I wouldn't bail Jaguar out, let em fail. I certainly wouldnt be bailing Woolworths out either.

    To be fair, there are very few companies I think should be bailed out with taxpayers money- regardless of the job losses.

    exactly.

    Businesses go under all the time. Some sooner than others. I think woolies and jaguar have had a good run for their money
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    better that we have lots of people who can design quality, fuel efficient engines than lots of less well paid people making them inefficiently.

    Jaguar/Land Rover are not the same as Rover (or GM/Ford now in America). Jaguar/Land Rover are modern and efficient...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jaguar/Land Rover are not the same as Rover (or GM/Ford now in America). Jaguar/Land Rover are modern and efficient...

    Obviously not enough. But if they're that good let the private sector pay - if you're right they'll make lots of money
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Obviously not enough. But if they're that good let the private sector pay - if you're right they'll make lots of money

    :thumb:
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm glad Britain hasn't thrown money to it's previous domestic car manufactuers to the extent America has. America is in big shit over this issue and the longer they prop up their shitty car companies and their wanky chrysler (every time i see one i resist the urge to throw something at it) type cars the more it's going to hurt when they fail.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    bigthree.jpg
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Just saw the Jag XF in the flesh the other night - saw it online and thought it was OK but in the flesh it's one nice looking car

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/c/c5/20070603190124!Jag_xf.jpg
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