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women are the biggest threat to the feminist movement???
Former Member
Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
I went to the reclaim the night march last night, and it was highly emotional, and there were quite a few arguements starting between the sex positive and sex negative feminists. But one thing we did agree on was that the biggest problem currently facing the feminist movement is other women. This is because so many have been conditioned by female led press with pictures of how they are meant to dress/eat/work/live, and that so many are now of the opinion that we have nothing left to fight for.
Just to prove we do:
women do not feel safe to walk on their local streets at night, due to the threat of rape and attack. there is only 1 rape crisis centre in london, we have the lowest rape conviction rate in europe, yet one of the highest number of reports, pimps are still not being charged, and the prositutes are being sent to jail- often when they have been trafficed or forced into it, there are very few support projects for victims of pimping and trafficing, self esteem is at an all time low amongst 11-25 year olds, equality in pay is still not happening for many individuals, more is expected of us than ever before (i.e. sucessful career, marriage, family, kids etc, not just a few), public childcare is still not sufficient, sex education and support for young mums isn't good, access to gynocological services is very patchy...the list goes on...
and this is just in britain. there are a plethora of other issues that are affecting women abroad, who we need to speak up for.
Possibly not the best put together arguement, but do you agree, that one of the main problems feminism faces is women themselves and the atitude that its all been said and done.
Just to prove we do:
women do not feel safe to walk on their local streets at night, due to the threat of rape and attack. there is only 1 rape crisis centre in london, we have the lowest rape conviction rate in europe, yet one of the highest number of reports, pimps are still not being charged, and the prositutes are being sent to jail- often when they have been trafficed or forced into it, there are very few support projects for victims of pimping and trafficing, self esteem is at an all time low amongst 11-25 year olds, equality in pay is still not happening for many individuals, more is expected of us than ever before (i.e. sucessful career, marriage, family, kids etc, not just a few), public childcare is still not sufficient, sex education and support for young mums isn't good, access to gynocological services is very patchy...the list goes on...
and this is just in britain. there are a plethora of other issues that are affecting women abroad, who we need to speak up for.
Possibly not the best put together arguement, but do you agree, that one of the main problems feminism faces is women themselves and the atitude that its all been said and done.
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Comments
The "male-control" in media stops at what makes money. They have no input into the content of a magazine like Heat, as long as it sells. Rupert Murdoch funds both Fox News and Family Guy, and you couldn't get much further apart than that in terms of the messages and political opinions.
:yes: But to be fair not just feminists being a threat to feminism, socialists are the biggest threat to socialism, christians the biggest threat to christianity etc
Any group which defines themselves solely by an 'ism' is going to be looked at slightly strangely by the broad mass of the population who are suspicious of their zealotry. They in turn don't try to bring the population along and instead resort to in-fighting and how many angels dance on a pinhead
But then that's not the establishments fault, it's just peoples attitudes. So normalising the attitude that women are equally capable in work or whatever by encouraging women to be more competitive for those roles in my opinion is the kind of direction in my opinion it should be moving.
So I don't think the biggest enemy is other women, but it's society as a whole. Although, I read recently that women tend to be more critical of other women than men are (i.e. in a workplace)... so maybe there is an element of truth that 'women sticking together' is less so now than it was in the past. But that's speculation on my part based on an article I read recently.
Some interesting and eloquently put answers here: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080917062650AA80H66
Basically the only way to appeal to all, is to pretend that nothing is that important to you or defines you
Are you a good woman by looking after your family? My friend definately takes pride in her (considerable) cooking ability and loves cooking for her boyfriend and friends. Whenever I'm back home I take a bottle of wine round and she cooks me a feast to welcome me home. But on the other hand, our other friend would argue she is being a poor example of an emancipated woman, by living up to the stereotypes that she has to look after others as a slave almost. So it's not all that surprising when she believes that's what feminism is, that she doesn't wish to be associated with it.
I should also point out that my friend (who likes cooking) is very very much an alpha female who 'wears the trousers' in the relationship, so it's not a clear cut case in my example of strong women embracing their liberty and weak women being pushed around. I think you really need to make it so that moderate girls like my friend can feel they can be a feminist and support their rights, but also able to live their life how they would like to without being told off or made to feel like they've done something wrong.
I think shyboy's example of a friend being told she's sexist because she likes cooking is a common thing for some feminists. I know one feminist who seems so concerned with doing the opposite of the stereotypical femal role that she doesn't concentrate on doing what makes her happy, which seems counter productive if feminism is supposed to be about making women's lives better.
I find these stereotypes a bit strange really. It isnt my experience
I think there are really some terrible 'feminist' stereotypes out there which are very silly and ignorant. People who call themselves 'feminists' are probably very likely to believe in the equality for the sexes, but feminism has so many different forms and exists in several cultures, has movements in different religions ect.
I think that when we ask what women have to fight for... We also have to ask what women?
Different groups have different needs... For example, The Fawcett Society has a different campaign to Southall Black Sisters.
Gosh I could write a lot on this....
*Buts needs ma dinner*
surely caring for the home and family makes you a good person reguardless of your gender, as its not a gender specific role anymore. but then again so does going out and earning money to support the household...thus does it matter what gender these people are, as long as they are happy and supported whilst doing it?
I can't see why there are many man-hating feminists, and i won't say there aren't any because i met a tonne on saturday night. a lot of feminists are the worst for sexism, they ban men from marches, workshops and groups (some understandably, like those dealing with female sexuality and rape victims), but i can understand how male feminists can feel completely alienated!
But there have always been divisions and arguements between people who subscribe to different breeds of feminism.
ETA: But I haven't met many man hating feminists... I do agree with women only space sometimes too. However, you will have some at the demonstration, as you get extremes at any demo.
Want another example? Cast your mind back to the time when David Beckham was caught out (allegedly) having an affair with Rebecca Loos? Who's the person who got criticised the most - Rebecca Loos for shamefully trying to seduce a married man? David Beckham for being unable to keep his trousers on? No, it was Victoria. And most of the people who thought the wife was to blame was other women! So much for solidarity and sticking up for one another eh, sisters?
Next, I get the impression that women only want equality when it suits them. They want the same wage as a man, and that's fair enough. However, they're also allowed by law to retire five years BEFORE men do, yet they live on average three or four years longer than the males. Why isn't the feminist movement crying out for both sexes to be allowed to retire at the same age? The likes of Harriet Harman, who normally love the sound of their own voices, fall deaf at moments like this.
Why is so much more money spent on women's health than men's? But we shouldn't be surprised. There's votes to be won in campaigning for a cure for breast cancer, after all. Just ask Patricia Hewitt. When she was Health Secretary, she abused her position as a minister to order the supposedly independent drugs rationing body Nice to allow Herceptin to be prescribed on the NHS. Would she have ordered them to do the same thing were Herceptin a drug to deal with prostate cancer? Nah, I somehow suspect not - and I also suspect the media would have let her get away with it.
If women have it so badly, how come they're doing so much better than the guys in the education system? They do better at GCSEs, A-Levels and at our universities. Years of campaigning by "progressive" politicians and lobby groups have brought about massive improvements in education for women - I say this is rightly so, before anyone dares accuse me of having some woman-bashing agenda - but this is at the expense of men. Results for the boys have actually FALLEN in the last few years in some subjects.
I can already see the flames off the horizon... What the hell does that actually mean? Is this person seriously saying that generations of women need to die before feminism takes effect? Clearly that man needs to get out more.
by millitant, i mean those who are anti-men, of an attitude - "I am emancipated and thus don't need society, as its all run by men and they are the root of all evil- those who don't want to work with the intitutions, just fight against them, those who seem to have been angsty in the 70's when they were teenagers, and seem to be of the same antiestablishment view still. people who are very intollerant of sex positive views, i could go on...
but i'm finding more and more of these people, and they aren't in their 40/50's anymore they seem to be getting younger, and it pushes me away from the core of the movement...
The same thing people mean by "militant" atheists. It's just a way of attempting to discredit someone and make them appear intolerant, rather than actually address their arguments.
This doesn't really make a point against anything. Being a feminist does not mean that you aren't allowed to criticise another women.
Of course Palin received criticism for women because she was against abortion.
Could be because of other factors. Where is there evidence that women are favoured in education? Perhaps this is to do with macho subcultures, increasing poverty... Surely there's a reason for this?
Because women get better grades (in some areas), does this mean that women have more access to power after education?
Here is a problem though...
There is no single feminist movement, there are several different movements and groups.
Just because one group is radical does not say anything about the other groups. It has nothing to do with the principle that men and women are equal.
I think women are nasty to each other, I think men are hard on women in other ways. I think that women can be hard on men and men can be hard on each other (sorry to keep this on such a binary, I don't mean to exclude the inbetweenies).
But Sarah Palin's criticism was well due. I am sure that people would have things to say if Obama decided to bring back seperate water fountains for 'coloureds'.
Women do stick up for each other. The fact that so many women's rights groups exist globally is proof of this... Though I think that many people seem to view feminism as a homogenous middle class white movement.
but i've been the brunt of some pretty nasty opinons, some of my ex female friends were pretty nasty when i came out as bi, where as all but 2 of my male friends were wholly supportive. Some women can be bitchy, but what Helen Mirren said was stupid. Anyone in their right mind wouldn't be jealous of being violated.
I'm so relieved that for this week at least, men are not to blame.
Sorry to hear that mate.
But do you think if you were a guy, the situation would have been the same?