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6+5
Former Member
Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
I doubt this will get anywhere in the EU courts, but what would your team be if the rules were brought in now.
Man City:
Hart
Onuoha---Richards---Dunne---Ball
Johnson----Gelson
Vassell
Petrov
Elano
Benjani
But I reckon we'd be struggling if we got a few injuries. We've got some great young talent, but it's not ready for the first team yet.
Man City:
Hart
Onuoha---Richards---Dunne---Ball
Johnson----Gelson
Vassell
Petrov
Elano
Benjani
But I reckon we'd be struggling if we got a few injuries. We've got some great young talent, but it's not ready for the first team yet.
Post edited by JustV on
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Comments
TAYLOR
GARDNER---KNIGHT/DAVIES---Laursen---Bouma
Petrov
REO-COKER
BARRY
YOUNG
---
AGBONLAHOR---Carew
though if they lose the players rumoured to be leaving (petrov, maloney, barry) they probably won't be able to field 11 first team standard players at all...
Van der Sar
Brown---Ferdinand---Vidic---Evra
Hargreaves---Carrick---Scholes---Ronaldo
Rooney----Tevez
When VDS and Scholes retire, put Foster at goalkeeper and that would free up room for a foreign player (Anderson) in Scholes' place.
I personally think it is a stupid idea and utterly wrong. Why should the talented kids from Africa be denied an opportunity to play in the best league in the world simply because of where they are from? I agree with Wenger that league football should be about the 11 best players and that nationality is regardless. I'd rather see the fake Ronaldo or van Persie play in this country than shite like Richardson or Jeffers.
What we have now is no different to the 1980s where Liverpool dominated with a team full of Scots.
Otherwise we go back to the stupid situation in the early years of the Champions League where Man Utd couldn't play their best team because of nationality rules and as such always bombed in the CL.
You'd still have Ronaldo and Van Persie, cos they are quality players who would make it into the top 5 foreign players of any club in England.
I like the idea but it would have to be thought through properly and like Kermit says tighter laws on poaching players when they turn 16 is a must, I also believe the 90 minute rule is still in place for the English youth players.
It would give a massive shake up to the league, yes it would probably drop a bit in quality for a year or so but in the end with the right coaching throughout the youth teams etc. could be a very good thing for the English national team.
I liked the Champions league final, 2 English clubs both with a core of top quality English players, I'd like every team in the Premiership to have this.
Oh and the rules isn't planned to just come straight into effect, it was planned to start out with 7 English, then the year after go to 6 then finally to 5, so it would have a couple of years to bed in and for teams to put a squad into place.
Apparently Wenger has a youth side at Arsenal that is mainly English players who play the same kind of football as the first team, so in my opinion its not the personnel that make that team play good football, its the training methods, so in time the league could still have an excellent Arsenal team playing excellent football but with English players, something I know I'd like to see.
The very best would get a game, but what about those that are still better than the English talent but not in the top five at their club? Clubs would have to choose teams according to who is the least-weakest, rather than who is the strongest player for them.
Manchester United fans should know all about it from the old days of the Champions League, where they were prevented from playing their best team because too many of them were not English. At the time they had to choose three from McClair, Schmeichel, Cantona, Giggs, Irwin and Kanchelskis. It wasn't fair then and it's not fair now.
spot on analysis
Wes Brown wouldn't have being playing this season if if wasn't for Injuries, and although I've never rated him he has improved immensley this last year because he's played regular first team football with the eventual champions of England and Europe. Maybe it wasn't fair then but this is a totally different situation! They were playing a full league season with a team, having to go to Europe for the few games a season and chop and change that team to obide by the rules, which made it difficult. With this proposed new system they would be playing week in and out with the same team and it would hardly effect Man U anyway as it stands.
Anyway is all arguements for nothing cos it will never happen.
That's not really true- they're not getting games because they're not generally good enough or mature enough. Sidwell and Bridge are being kept out of the side by English players, not foreigners, too.
Would you play Carson ahead of Reina? Foster ahead of van der Sar? Crouch ahead of Torres? Walcott ahead of van Persie or Eduardo? Pennant ahead of anyone? I know I wouldn't and therein lies the problem. English players are overpriced, overhyped and simply not good enough.
Managers will employ foreigners for many reasons. Quite often it simply comes down to price. Wenger could go and buy eight van Persies for the price of one Darren Bent. Is it any wonder he doesn't buy established English talent?
There is arguments for and against this idea, I just think I would like to have a minimum of 24 English players playing in a top four club and in the champions league, surely this can't do our national team any harm, so what if the quality of the division drops slightly, am sure it would soon pick back up again.
a* retort nice one
who is the retard? stupid cunt.
If you agree with the report then good for you, you are my hero, but I think he was talking pure shite and blabbled on about smug british and car manufacturers, like WTF???
Enjoy your weekend
As for that article, of course it's bullshit to compare football to protectionist business practices. If it was just the Premiership that was proposing these limits, then he'd have a point. But it would be a limit across all of Europe, so the parallel isn't valid.
Yet foreign players of the same age ARE getting that chance. Why do you think that is?
I think Walcott will get more games this season but other players, like Sidwell and SWP, are just not good enough. rather than attacking foreigners for being better we should be looking at why English talent isn't good enough to get games on merit. We shouldn't be diluting the quality of the league by making clubs select sub-standard players, we should be making more players good enough to be selected on merit.
That said, foreigners do get selected ahead of English players because of price and because we have a huge number of foreign coaches working in the English game. Clubs will generally buy established foreign talent because it is cheaper than promising English talent. Clubs like Portsmouth buy players like Krancjar because they are better value for money than English players. Clubs like Liverpool buy a lot of Spanish talent because the managers are Spanish.
As for not doing the England team any harm, when we had a pretty-much exclusively English league we failed to qualify for more tournaments than we qualified for. Now that we have more foreigners in the top flight we reached three successive quarter finals under Sven and reached the semis twice in the 90s. Which makes me think that it isn't about the number of Englishmen in the league- it's about the inability to appoint a decent coach.
What I find more of a concern is that good English and British coaching talent isn't given a chance in the top flight. When Ferguson retires the job won't go to a Scot from an overachieveing but unfashionable Scottish team. I can never see proven managers from the lower leagues, like Paul Ince, getting the top jobs; even proven Premiership managers, like Hughes or O'Neill, aren't given a look-in at the biggest clubs.
A quota system won't make the England national side any better. It may well make it worse. The Champions League quota system in the 1990s coincided with both France and England failing to get to the 1994 World Cup. A more foreign Premier League coincided with England's best prolonged competitive display since we won the World Cup. The facts speak for themselves.
I see what you're saying and I agree the English talent is over-priced but Man U and Chelsea are both competing at the top level in all competitions with a nucleus of English talent and I'm sure other teams could do the same but something does have to be done about the price of the English lads! Ya see the likes of Wes Brown has won the double with Man U, no-one can tell me there isn't probably 20, 30 maybe even 40 or 50 better right backs throughout World Football, but it hasn't stopped Man U being the best team in Europe and England.
I like the foreign players in the league, it makes the league better but I think if the trend carries on like it has done the last 10/15 years then its going to come to a point where we are picking the national side out of mainly championship players. I'd like this trend to stop and the only way of doing it would be to introduce a system like this one proposed.
I agree SWP isn't good enough, maybe a bad move on his part but who wouldn't want to join a top 4 club if the chance arose! He was good enough for Chelsea to pay somewhere in the region of £20million for him and if he'd have carried on at Man City I reckon we would have being talking about a better player than one thats being sat on the bench for basically 2 years. Also Sidwell is a decent player otherwise these clubs wouldn't have bought them, although maybe Sidwell was bought to cover when half the Chelsea team went to the African nations but still they obviously thought he was good enough to cover that period.
Its a perfectly valid and accurate comparison (though protectionism is a business practice?). Protectionism is never one way. Economic theory shows how detrimental it is to an industry and is backed up by countless real world examples.
England isn't very good at producing footballers hence it imports so many, just like most consumer goods in england aren't foreign. Part of the premierships brand is the free market where teams can sign almost who they want from where they want. The significance of foreign revenue cannot be ignored and quota system would damage this badly. If England produces comparitevely few high quality players now with the money it has how many will be produced when people across the world are watching la liga or serie a instead. Also you'd be shitting on the consumers, the fans, who want their money to buy the best players not some monkey Blatter has forced on them.
If England wants to produce more footballers it needs to become better at it and damaging English footballs main source of revenue for investment is not the way to do it.
It has nothing to do with "wanting it both ways". The argument for a quota system is that it would make the England team better. The fact is that the best England performances have been in a situation where a lot of the top players in England are foreign. The worst have been where most top players were English.
A good England team needs a good manager. A quota system would not make a jot of difference.
Are they? Not sure I agree.
Man Utd's foreign key players are Ronaldo (Portugal), Tevez (Argentina) van der Sar (Holland), Vidic (Serbia) and Evra (France). Only Ferdinand and Rooney are English and they cost a combined total of £57m (that's five Ronaldos). Man Utd's best player of the last decade is Welsh.
As for Chelsea, the most important players they have are Cech (Czech Republic), Makelele (France), Essien (France) and Ferreira (Portugal)- everyone raves about Terry and Lampard but Ferreira and Makelele make those players, as their England performances testify.
He is a decent player, but he's not world class. If he was world class he wouldn't have been rejected by both Arsenal and Chelsea.
Well it's more a political policy of a government, but you know what I mean. The fact is that the 6+5 rule would apply to everyone, so it would be the same rules for everyone. The Premiership's standards would drop, and countries like France, Brazil, Portugal and Holland would have their standards raised by more of their talented players staying in those leagues. It would mean that more English players would play at the top level of English football, but unfortunately for them, it would mean that the top level of English football was probably no longer the top level of world football.
But another thing that bothers me is that if you look past the Premiership, no other countries can match the depth of clubs in England, and the number of clubs regularly attracting massive crowds. The Championship is full of English players, and they're actually playing at a very professional level of the game, for very respectable wages, and in clubs that are capable of bringing in a lot of money. That means they are training in top facilities, with good coaches, in high pressure games. And the quality of football is actually very good. And I think there's a tendancy to always go abroad for players, when there is a depth of talent there, like Darren Bent, Dean Ashton, Tim Cahill (Aussie, I know), Joleon Lescott and Theo Walcott. Okay, a few teams have had their fingers burned with the likes of David Nugent, but if you compare it to the number of crap deals from other leagues, I'd say players have been far more successful making the step up from Championship to Premiership, than say from the French league to the English league (or even more so from the Italian league). With these foreign players, it's because they didn't fit the system, or didn't adapt to the "English style" of play. When it's an English player, it's because he's shit.
Not that I'm proposing a cap though. I think managers should have the right to buy whoever they think is right for the team regardless of nationality. It's just that David Moyes has made Everton the most likely to break the top 4 by doing just what I said.
So you pick the right back who they've been trying to replace for ages over the left back they chased for ages, paid a record transfer fee, and has Ronaldo in his pocket every time they face each other? Miguel and Belletti have both been bought to replace Ferreira, and the fact that he played second fiddle to central-midfielder Essien (another one of your "key" players who's so key he only gets to play in his preferred position when Lampard, Ballack or Makelele are injured) Then you leave out Chelsea's player of the season, Joe Cole, who is the main creative force in the team? And finally, you think that John Terry isn't a key player for Chelsea? And Ferreira makes him? Htf can a right-back make a centre-half, especially when Terry is more frequently seen next to the left back?
Sorry if I think you're being a little selective to prove yourself right here.
Kermit is always very selective to make his point and as you quite rightly pointed out he missed out a lot of players.
Also I said the team had a "nucleus" of British talent not that the best players were English!
Straight through the middle of scum - Ferdinand, Scholes, Carrick, Hargreaves and Rooney, that is the key to the team!
I also missed out Cantona, who is French. Point?
Hargreaves played fewer games than both Nani and Anderson last season. Hardly a key player, then.
You're right about Joe Cole, but again that doesn't really prove anything either. Given that Cole is one of England's most important players it can't really be said that a quota system would make him, or the team, better.
The point is that those in favour of the quota system say it would make the England team stronger. I say that it doesn't make a jot of difference. The foreign influence seems to have improved England's performances- since 1990 we've had two semi finals, three quarter finals and one last 16 finish out of the eight tournaments we qualified for.
PS. Meant Carvalho, serves me right for rushing out a response. Sorry about that:)
True. But he showed me enough to suggest that he's gonna be. And he did play an important role in the Champions League games I saw.
I'm not saying it would. I'm just disputing your claim that Man Utd and Chelsea didn't have a core of English talent.
Jesus Christ, that's even worse.