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6+5

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
edited January 2023 in General Chat
I doubt this will get anywhere in the EU courts, but what would your team be if the rules were brought in now.

Man City:

Hart
Onuoha---Richards---Dunne---Ball

Johnson----Gelson
Vassell
Petrov
Elano
Benjani

But I reckon we'd be struggling if we got a few injuries. We've got some great young talent, but it's not ready for the first team yet.
Post edited by JustV on

Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    do Darren Fletcher and John O'Shea count? or is it just English players?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Just English I think. John O'Shea's not even British.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i know, but he came through the youth system. not entirely sure of the criteria, to be honest.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru

    TAYLOR

    GARDNER---KNIGHT/DAVIES---Laursen---Bouma

    Petrov

    REO-COKER
    BARRY

    YOUNG

    ---
    AGBONLAHOR---Carew

    though if they lose the players rumoured to be leaving (petrov, maloney, barry) they probably won't be able to field 11 first team standard players at all...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The Man United team that started CL final meets the specifications:

    Van der Sar

    Brown---Ferdinand---Vidic---Evra

    Hargreaves---Carrick---Scholes---Ronaldo

    Rooney----Tevez


    When VDS and Scholes retire, put Foster at goalkeeper and that would free up room for a foreign player (Anderson) in Scholes' place.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I reckon we'd all be fucked with a few injuries though. All it would achieve is that the top teams would buy up all of the best English talent at huge prices, and none of the smaller teams would have a chance of competing. And talented players from smaller countries wouldn't have a chance of competing at the highest level and for the biggest wages (which is incidentally why it'll never be approved by the European courts). Anyone think it's more than a coincidence that these measure have been discussed for years, but they only try to serious bring it in the second England becomes the best league in the world?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If it was done properly it could narrow the gap between the "Big Four" and the rest, particularly as I believe the 90-minute drive rule is still in place for academy players. There would need to be tougher rules on poaching academy players, though, to prevent the big clubs stealing the kids once they turn 16.

    I personally think it is a stupid idea and utterly wrong. Why should the talented kids from Africa be denied an opportunity to play in the best league in the world simply because of where they are from? I agree with Wenger that league football should be about the 11 best players and that nationality is regardless. I'd rather see the fake Ronaldo or van Persie play in this country than shite like Richardson or Jeffers.

    What we have now is no different to the 1980s where Liverpool dominated with a team full of Scots.

    Otherwise we go back to the stupid situation in the early years of the Champions League where Man Utd couldn't play their best team because of nationality rules and as such always bombed in the CL.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote: »
    I personally think it is a stupid idea and utterly wrong. Why should the talented kids from Africa be denied an opportunity to play in the best league in the world simply because of where they are from? I agree with Wenger that league football should be about the 11 best players and that nationality is regardless. I'd rather see the fake Ronaldo or van Persie play in this country than shite like Richardson or Jeffers.
    Why would they be denied playing in the best league in the world if there good enough?? Theres 20 teams, thats 100 foreign players that can start a premiership game each week, and then another load who would be in the squad but maybe not starting, so if there good enough they won't be denied.
    You'd still have Ronaldo and Van Persie, cos they are quality players who would make it into the top 5 foreign players of any club in England.

    I like the idea but it would have to be thought through properly and like Kermit says tighter laws on poaching players when they turn 16 is a must, I also believe the 90 minute rule is still in place for the English youth players.

    It would give a massive shake up to the league, yes it would probably drop a bit in quality for a year or so but in the end with the right coaching throughout the youth teams etc. could be a very good thing for the English national team.

    I liked the Champions league final, 2 English clubs both with a core of top quality English players, I'd like every team in the Premiership to have this.

    Oh and the rules isn't planned to just come straight into effect, it was planned to start out with 7 English, then the year after go to 6 then finally to 5, so it would have a couple of years to bed in and for teams to put a squad into place.

    Apparently Wenger has a youth side at Arsenal that is mainly English players who play the same kind of football as the first team, so in my opinion its not the personnel that make that team play good football, its the training methods, so in time the league could still have an excellent Arsenal team playing excellent football but with English players, something I know I'd like to see.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Why would they be denied playing in the best league in the world if there good enough?

    The very best would get a game, but what about those that are still better than the English talent but not in the top five at their club? Clubs would have to choose teams according to who is the least-weakest, rather than who is the strongest player for them.

    Manchester United fans should know all about it from the old days of the Champions League, where they were prevented from playing their best team because too many of them were not English. At the time they had to choose three from McClair, Schmeichel, Cantona, Giggs, Irwin and Kanchelskis. It wasn't fair then and it's not fair now.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    minimi38 wrote: »
    Well I started reading that but he was blabbing on and I personally believe he was talking shite, only my opinion but there was no spot on analysis in the part I read.
    The very best would get a game, but what about those that are still better than the English talent but not in the top five at their club? Clubs would have to choose teams according to who is the least-weakest, rather than who is the strongest player for them.
    They would move clubs, thing is you look at the English talent that is rotting away in reserves throughout the league but mainly in the big clubs! You've got the likes S Wrigt-philips, W.Bridge, Sidwell, Walcott, Ben Foster, Crouch, Pennant, Carson. All these are not getting a proper chance because of foreign players, I agree that the foreign players are better but the likes of SWP and Walcott have exceptional talent but there not getting the chance in the top clubs to actually show it and do it week in and out.
    Wes Brown wouldn't have being playing this season if if wasn't for Injuries, and although I've never rated him he has improved immensley this last year because he's played regular first team football with the eventual champions of England and Europe.
    Manchester United fans should know all about it from the old days of the Champions League, where they were prevented from playing their best team because too many of them were not English. At the time they had to choose three from McClair, Schmeichel, Cantona, Giggs, Irwin and Kanchelskis. It wasn't fair then and it's not fair now.
    Maybe it wasn't fair then but this is a totally different situation! They were playing a full league season with a team, having to go to Europe for the few games a season and chop and change that team to obide by the rules, which made it difficult. With this proposed new system they would be playing week in and out with the same team and it would hardly effect Man U anyway as it stands.
    Anyway is all arguements for nothing cos it will never happen.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I know that this is completly off topic but I just had a yummy sandwich for lunch. Mmmmm!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You've got the likes S Wrigt-philips, W.Bridge, Sidwell, Walcott, Ben Foster, Crouch, Pennant, Carson. All these are not getting a proper chance because of foreign players

    That's not really true- they're not getting games because they're not generally good enough or mature enough. Sidwell and Bridge are being kept out of the side by English players, not foreigners, too.

    Would you play Carson ahead of Reina? Foster ahead of van der Sar? Crouch ahead of Torres? Walcott ahead of van Persie or Eduardo? Pennant ahead of anyone? I know I wouldn't and therein lies the problem. English players are overpriced, overhyped and simply not good enough.

    Managers will employ foreigners for many reasons. Quite often it simply comes down to price. Wenger could go and buy eight van Persies for the price of one Darren Bent. Is it any wonder he doesn't buy established English talent?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I understand what you're saying but the likes of SWP was showing excellent promise and so was Walcott, they've moved to a top 4 club (understandable) but now they're not getting a chance to develop their talent at the top level!
    There is arguments for and against this idea, I just think I would like to have a minimum of 24 English players playing in a top four club and in the champions league, surely this can't do our national team any harm, so what if the quality of the division drops slightly, am sure it would soon pick back up again.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well I started reading that but he was blabbing on and I personally believe he was talking shite, only my opinion but there was no spot on analysis in the part I read.

    a* retort nice one
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    minimi38 wrote: »
    a* retort nice one
    A* retard nice one
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    minimi38 wrote: »
    Also an A* report, basically saying "I agree with all he said", sorry that I don't agree with all bullshit spouted in the media.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    haha. there is nothing wrong with linking to an article and saying i agree with it. what i agree with is stated in the article for anyone to see. saying "i couldn't be arsed to read it but its shite. i dont agree with the media" though hilarious is fucking stupid.

    who is the retard? stupid cunt.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    minimi38 wrote: »
    haha. there is nothing wrong with linking to an article and saying i agree with it. what i agree with is stated in the article for anyone to see. saying "i couldn't be arsed to read it but its shite. i dont agree with the media" though hilarious is fucking stupid.

    who is the retard? stupid cunt.
    Well after reading 2/3 pages of blabbering bullshit, i decided to stop reading cos all I was reading was pure shite IMO!

    If you agree with the report then good for you, you are my hero, but I think he was talking pure shite and blabbled on about smug british and car manufacturers, like WTF???

    Enjoy your weekend
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Maybe we should be looking at why no English players are wanted outside of England. Or probably more accurately, why no English players are willing to go out of England (perhaps their agents are an issue here). Same with English managers to be honest. I'm sick of them whinging that they never get a shot at the big jobs. Why not go to a smaller league and get some Champions League experience? Do you see Spanish players limiting their Champions League opportunities to the 4 clubs that happen to be in it in their own country? Or French players? Or German players? Compare the like of Wayne Bridge or Steve Sidwell to Diego Forlan or Freddie Kanoute, who were struggling to get into their teams, went elsewhere, and got valuable game time at the top level as a result. When players struggle to get into one of the top teams, do they look abroad? Do they check whether the likes of Lyon or Werder Bremen are interested? No, they do what Scott Parker and Phil Neville did and go to a mid-table Premier League side, and then everyone complains that there aren't enough English players playing regular Champions League football (incidentally, if anyone has a breakdown of the number of players in this competition by nationality, I'd be very interested to see that). This could be because these players aren't good enough. I highly suspect it's actually because so few of them are willing to leave the English league.

    As for that article, of course it's bullshit to compare football to protectionist business practices. If it was just the Premiership that was proposing these limits, then he'd have a point. But it would be a limit across all of Europe, so the parallel isn't valid.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I understand what you're saying but the likes of SWP was showing excellent promise and so was Walcott, they've moved to a top 4 club (understandable) but now they're not getting a chance to develop their talent at the top level!

    Yet foreign players of the same age ARE getting that chance. Why do you think that is?

    I think Walcott will get more games this season but other players, like Sidwell and SWP, are just not good enough. rather than attacking foreigners for being better we should be looking at why English talent isn't good enough to get games on merit. We shouldn't be diluting the quality of the league by making clubs select sub-standard players, we should be making more players good enough to be selected on merit.

    That said, foreigners do get selected ahead of English players because of price and because we have a huge number of foreign coaches working in the English game. Clubs will generally buy established foreign talent because it is cheaper than promising English talent. Clubs like Portsmouth buy players like Krancjar because they are better value for money than English players. Clubs like Liverpool buy a lot of Spanish talent because the managers are Spanish.

    As for not doing the England team any harm, when we had a pretty-much exclusively English league we failed to qualify for more tournaments than we qualified for. Now that we have more foreigners in the top flight we reached three successive quarter finals under Sven and reached the semis twice in the 90s. Which makes me think that it isn't about the number of Englishmen in the league- it's about the inability to appoint a decent coach.

    What I find more of a concern is that good English and British coaching talent isn't given a chance in the top flight. When Ferguson retires the job won't go to a Scot from an overachieveing but unfashionable Scottish team. I can never see proven managers from the lower leagues, like Paul Ince, getting the top jobs; even proven Premiership managers, like Hughes or O'Neill, aren't given a look-in at the biggest clubs.

    A quota system won't make the England national side any better. It may well make it worse. The Champions League quota system in the 1990s coincided with both France and England failing to get to the 1994 World Cup. A more foreign Premier League coincided with England's best prolonged competitive display since we won the World Cup. The facts speak for themselves.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You say the facts speak for themselves about England qualification but also say it was down to shite managers in the past, you can't have it both ways!

    I see what you're saying and I agree the English talent is over-priced but Man U and Chelsea are both competing at the top level in all competitions with a nucleus of English talent and I'm sure other teams could do the same but something does have to be done about the price of the English lads! Ya see the likes of Wes Brown has won the double with Man U, no-one can tell me there isn't probably 20, 30 maybe even 40 or 50 better right backs throughout World Football, but it hasn't stopped Man U being the best team in Europe and England.

    I like the foreign players in the league, it makes the league better but I think if the trend carries on like it has done the last 10/15 years then its going to come to a point where we are picking the national side out of mainly championship players. I'd like this trend to stop and the only way of doing it would be to introduce a system like this one proposed.

    I agree SWP isn't good enough, maybe a bad move on his part but who wouldn't want to join a top 4 club if the chance arose! He was good enough for Chelsea to pay somewhere in the region of £20million for him and if he'd have carried on at Man City I reckon we would have being talking about a better player than one thats being sat on the bench for basically 2 years. Also Sidwell is a decent player otherwise these clubs wouldn't have bought them, although maybe Sidwell was bought to cover when half the Chelsea team went to the African nations but still they obviously thought he was good enough to cover that period.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    As for that article, of course it's bullshit to compare football to protectionist business practices. If it was just the Premiership that was proposing these limits, then he'd have a point. But it would be a limit across all of Europe, so the parallel isn't valid.

    Its a perfectly valid and accurate comparison (though protectionism is a business practice?). Protectionism is never one way. Economic theory shows how detrimental it is to an industry and is backed up by countless real world examples.

    England isn't very good at producing footballers hence it imports so many, just like most consumer goods in england aren't foreign. Part of the premierships brand is the free market where teams can sign almost who they want from where they want. The significance of foreign revenue cannot be ignored and quota system would damage this badly. If England produces comparitevely few high quality players now with the money it has how many will be produced when people across the world are watching la liga or serie a instead. Also you'd be shitting on the consumers, the fans, who want their money to buy the best players not some monkey Blatter has forced on them.

    If England wants to produce more footballers it needs to become better at it and damaging English footballs main source of revenue for investment is not the way to do it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You say the facts speak for themselves about England qualification but also say it was down to shite managers in the past, you can't have it both ways!

    It has nothing to do with "wanting it both ways". The argument for a quota system is that it would make the England team better. The fact is that the best England performances have been in a situation where a lot of the top players in England are foreign. The worst have been where most top players were English.

    A good England team needs a good manager. A quota system would not make a jot of difference.
    Man U and Chelsea are both competing at the top level in all competitions with a nucleus of English talent

    Are they? Not sure I agree.

    Man Utd's foreign key players are Ronaldo (Portugal), Tevez (Argentina) van der Sar (Holland), Vidic (Serbia) and Evra (France). Only Ferdinand and Rooney are English and they cost a combined total of £57m (that's five Ronaldos). Man Utd's best player of the last decade is Welsh.

    As for Chelsea, the most important players they have are Cech (Czech Republic), Makelele (France), Essien (France) and Ferreira (Portugal)- everyone raves about Terry and Lampard but Ferreira and Makelele make those players, as their England performances testify.
    Also Sidwell is a decent player

    He is a decent player, but he's not world class. If he was world class he wouldn't have been rejected by both Arsenal and Chelsea.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    minimi38 wrote: »
    Its a perfectly valid and accurate comparison (though protectionism is a business practice?). Protectionism is never one way. Economic theory shows how detrimental it is to an industry and is backed up by countless real world examples.

    Well it's more a political policy of a government, but you know what I mean. The fact is that the 6+5 rule would apply to everyone, so it would be the same rules for everyone. The Premiership's standards would drop, and countries like France, Brazil, Portugal and Holland would have their standards raised by more of their talented players staying in those leagues. It would mean that more English players would play at the top level of English football, but unfortunately for them, it would mean that the top level of English football was probably no longer the top level of world football.

    But another thing that bothers me is that if you look past the Premiership, no other countries can match the depth of clubs in England, and the number of clubs regularly attracting massive crowds. The Championship is full of English players, and they're actually playing at a very professional level of the game, for very respectable wages, and in clubs that are capable of bringing in a lot of money. That means they are training in top facilities, with good coaches, in high pressure games. And the quality of football is actually very good. And I think there's a tendancy to always go abroad for players, when there is a depth of talent there, like Darren Bent, Dean Ashton, Tim Cahill (Aussie, I know), Joleon Lescott and Theo Walcott. Okay, a few teams have had their fingers burned with the likes of David Nugent, but if you compare it to the number of crap deals from other leagues, I'd say players have been far more successful making the step up from Championship to Premiership, than say from the French league to the English league (or even more so from the Italian league). With these foreign players, it's because they didn't fit the system, or didn't adapt to the "English style" of play. When it's an English player, it's because he's shit.

    Not that I'm proposing a cap though. I think managers should have the right to buy whoever they think is right for the team regardless of nationality. It's just that David Moyes has made Everton the most likely to break the top 4 by doing just what I said.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote: »
    Man Utd's foreign key players are Ronaldo (Portugal), Tevez (Argentina) van der Sar (Holland), Vidic (Serbia) and Evra (France). Only Ferdinand and Rooney are English and they cost a combined total of £57m (that's five Ronaldos). Man Utd's best player of the last decade is Welsh.
    In your opinion. Hmm, you miss out Paul Scholes, who any Man Utd fan will tell you is a pretty big rival for Giggs' "best player of the last decade" title. And then why have Carrick and Hargreaves not got a mention? You'd think that in a title-winning team, central midfield would be a pretty vital position to get right, but apparently not.
    Kermit wrote: »
    As for Chelsea, the most important players they have are Cech (Czech Republic), Makelele (France), Essien (France) and Ferreira (Portugal)- everyone raves about Terry and Lampard but Ferreira and Makelele make those players, as their England performances testify.
    So you pick the right back who they've been trying to replace for ages over the left back they chased for ages, paid a record transfer fee, and has Ronaldo in his pocket every time they face each other? Miguel and Belletti have both been bought to replace Ferreira, and the fact that he played second fiddle to central-midfielder Essien (another one of your "key" players who's so key he only gets to play in his preferred position when Lampard, Ballack or Makelele are injured) Then you leave out Chelsea's player of the season, Joe Cole, who is the main creative force in the team? And finally, you think that John Terry isn't a key player for Chelsea? And Ferreira makes him? Htf can a right-back make a centre-half, especially when Terry is more frequently seen next to the left back?

    Sorry if I think you're being a little selective to prove yourself right here.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Sorry if I think you're being a little selective to prove yourself right here.
    Thanks, you saved me a job.

    Kermit is always very selective to make his point and as you quite rightly pointed out he missed out a lot of players.

    Also I said the team had a "nucleus" of British talent not that the best players were English!

    Straight through the middle of scum - Ferdinand, Scholes, Carrick, Hargreaves and Rooney, that is the key to the team!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Hmm, you miss out Paul Scholes, who any Man Utd fan will tell you is a pretty big rival for Giggs' "best player of the last decade" title.

    I also missed out Cantona, who is French. Point?
    And then why have Carrick and Hargreaves not got a mention? You'd think that in a title-winning team, central midfield would be a pretty vital position to get right, but apparently not.

    Hargreaves played fewer games than both Nani and Anderson last season. Hardly a key player, then.

    You're right about Joe Cole, but again that doesn't really prove anything either. Given that Cole is one of England's most important players it can't really be said that a quota system would make him, or the team, better.

    The point is that those in favour of the quota system say it would make the England team stronger. I say that it doesn't make a jot of difference. The foreign influence seems to have improved England's performances- since 1990 we've had two semi finals, three quarter finals and one last 16 finish out of the eight tournaments we qualified for.

    PS. Meant Carvalho, serves me right for rushing out a response. Sorry about that:)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote: »
    I also missed out Cantona, who is French. Point?
    Well I suspect if you were given the job of judging the best player of the last 10 years, a player who stopped playing in 1997 would be a bit of a stretch. The point is that you claim that Utd haven't had an English core and cited a foreigner, Ryan Giggs being a key player for the last decade as evidence for this. My point was that Paul Scholes has also been a key player for the same period, so your claim is clearly bollocks.
    Kermit wrote: »
    Hargreaves played fewer games than both Nani and Anderson last season. Hardly a key player, then.
    True. But he showed me enough to suggest that he's gonna be. And he did play an important role in the Champions League games I saw.
    Kermit wrote: »
    You're right about Joe Cole, but again that doesn't really prove anything either. Given that Cole is one of England's most important players it can't really be said that a quota system would make him, or the team, better.
    I'm not saying it would. I'm just disputing your claim that Man Utd and Chelsea didn't have a core of English talent.
    Kermit wrote: »
    PS. Meant Carvalho, serves me right for rushing out a response. Sorry about that:)
    Jesus Christ, that's even worse. :p
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