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If your argument against the Secular Society is that they are associated with a (highly respected and intelligent) journalist you happen to dislike, it is not a very convincing one. Where do I join in?
Oh dear dear...
No... I agree. Some of the most racist and homophobic people I have met have been atheists. The thing is, they justify their bigotry in other ways.
Unless you are suggesting the fact that those intolerant people you met were so because they were atheist... Is that what you're implying?
I can think of several mass murdering dictators who sported a moustache. Presumably it's okay for me to suggest mostauched people are to be watched carefully due to the high incidence of mass murderers amongst them...
Do you want to know hatred and prejudice? Have a look at some of the gems here:
http://www.fstdt.com/fundies/top100.aspx?archive=1
I'm hard pressed to think of any atheists who claim Christians should be murdered or that they are not human beings. Maybe you know of some...
A youth organisation which objective is allow kids to have fun and develop skills should not discriminate against some of them because they don't subscribe to religious beliefs. If we were talking about a Church, it might be a different matter.
I am yet to see any examples of why the Secular Society is a bunch of crackpots.
I didn't say that it was because people are atheists and I clearly wrote before that the problem is people, not religion or lack thereof. Bigotry is a result of socialisation (unless you're a primordialist or ethnosymbolist), anybody can be a bigot... But blaming it on religion is just another form of bigotry and intolerance in itself because one is tarring a whole group of people with the same brush, whether they see it that way or not.
Granted, I think that there are serious issues in certain cultures and the way in which religion is used by the state and institutions, but then that is from the beliefs of somebody with a eurocentric secular perspective on human rigts.
lol tbh, I experienced more sexism in the scouts than anything else.
Well I think religion is merely a set of ideas like any other. And to discount a set of ideas as completely harmless is in one sense correct. It takes someone acting on that set of ideas for it to become dangerous. However, in that sense, it is identical to two other sets of ideas that you have identified; racism and sexism. In that sense, there is absolutely nothing wrong with being a bigot or sexist as long as such attitudes are not imposed upon the rest of us (through racist actions, laws changed to allow for racist people's racism, taxpayer money being used on racist/sexist ventures, etc). And nobody would be shy about criticising anyone that had such values and attempted to impose them on the rest of us.
So from the point of view of immigration, I think the hugely important thing to do is to treat their views and their culture as seriously as you would anything else. That means them being subjected to the same sort of free discussion, critical thinking and debate that we would expect any other set of ideas to go through, and not sweeping them under the carpet and claiming that it would be intolerant to criticise them or even ban certain practices (in that case, isn't it fairly intolerant to ban the cultural practice of a Somalian family to genitally mutilate their daugher?). To me, it is more insulting to assume that these people couldn't justify their own ideas. Of course, this is assuming any sort of special treatment or law changes are requested by a particular community. And this goes for British people to. In my opinion, the British tradition of marriage being between one man and one woman should not automatically override the muslim tradition of a man being allowed more than one wife for the simple reason that it is British (or European). In that case, my opinion would be that consenting adults should be able to enter into whatever agreement they wish and call it whatever they want (and the natural consequences would of course be that women would equally be allowed multiple husbands, and the equivalent rules for gay people). No need for religion or culture to be brought into it, simply a question of what is the fairest result for those involved. If they want to attibute their desire to have multiple wives to their religion or culture, then fair enough. As long as they've justified it without the usual "It's part of my religion/culture." "Oh well, better let them then. Don't want to be intolerant."
mind if i ask, what is a racist athiest, since religious views have nothing to do with race normally........
Blimey, let's go all the way and allow incest as well.
Fundamental British traditions (such as marriage between one man and one woman) should automatically override those of immigrants (no matter how they are justified) if they clash. Without that rule you abolish Britain as a nation. Your view would lead to different self-serving groups seeking out their group interests with nothing to bind them all together. It would create suspicion, contempt, conflict and disunion. The liberal democratic nation state allows for different cultures. It gives that freedom while at the same time holding on to fundamental principles - national traditions, which bind all those different cultures together, giving them a sense of kinship.
Like I said, many people would see this as somehow disrespecting people's traditions and culture, but I would say that it is the definition of respect to treat them as seriously as any political or moral opinion, and subject them to the same rational debate as anything else.
I agree. Though I imagine it often isn't the only argument, and it is possible that the religious/cultural traditions will be 'what is fairest' to those involved. Regardless, I think, if they clash with fundamental British traditions, they should give way for the reasons I mentioned. If you come here you leave them behind because you are now British.
We're in agreement there.
Absolutely. Like I said, you shouldn't ever dismiss an idea just because it has some religious or cultural basis, but it still should be required that advocates or the idea make their case in a non-religious or cultural sense.
It's called Great Britain as it's the largest island in the British Isles. I think Ireland is Lesser Britain (though for obvious reasons that has never caught on).
But what is great about Britain - seriously? Why do so many immigrants, it seems, want to come and live here? What do they see about UK plc that those of us already here don't?
Maybe its not that the UK is so great, just that their country is worse.
Try living in the countries they come from. We're in the fortunate advantage of actually living in one of the top 5 nations in the world. Go figure.
These things may not be unrelated...