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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    Problem is I have a limited vocabulary such that I can't think of a word to replace it adequately. ***.

    I find the word fuck has a varied use - 'fucked up', 'fuck off', 'fucking bastard', 'would you like a fuck' and my personal favourite 'fuckwit'.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I prefer fucktard
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Not intentionally - but if you'd bothered to read what I'd said...

    I did, and knew you would highlight this in your reply. The word intentionally changes nothing.
    People may not be acting in a deliberately homophobic or anti-Semitic way - but the words they are using and the origins of such insults is indisputably homophobic/anti-Semitic.

    I dare you to even have a quick skim over etymology. Words that now have negative connotations started out as good, words with good started out as bad... where do we draw the line? We can't call people idiots because it's offensive to people with low IQ's? We can't use the word 'fat' when describing food because simply using it means we're being anti-obese unintentionally? We're no longer able to refer to male kids as 'boys' because 'boy' was an anti-black word? Give me a break.
    What are you on about now? What has this got to do with the words Jew and gay being used as insults?

    What, you want me to start Googling different comedians routines to see which of them incorporate 'gay' and 'Jew' as insults? I was more meaning comedians who tell jokes that could be taken as homophobic or anti-Semitic, but I have heard the former being used. Regardless, surely using 'Jew' in a facetious comment to your friend is down the racism scale from a comedian telling an anti-Semitic joke on stage to a ton of people.
    You're not necessarily being homophobic but your choice of language is homophobic. I find it homophobic that my identity is being used as a synonym for stupid/shitty/annoying.

    Homophobic or otherwise is determined by the individual person's attitude. Nothing is homophobic, racist, anti-sementic, fascist, narrow-minded or whatever on its own - that is determined by ut's usage and the mindset of the user.

    You remind me of this guy.
    So what? I'm gay, I don't use 'gay' in that way and I hate to hear it used like that... Some of my friends do, my close friends don't - I know people don't mean it in a homophobic/hateful way but if you're using somebody else's identity as a synonym for shit you don't have to be particularly bright to realise how that can be offensive.

    You don't have to be particularly bright to realise they don't mean it in a serious way. Grow up, pick your battles, and move on. Seriously, why be wound up and offended over things where no offence was intended? Where is the line drawn between facetious comment to a friend and downright racist? Should we not joke around with our friends at all now incase some overly sensitive, political correct person we don't even know may take offence to it even though they will never hear it?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The new word shall be lame.

    Feels slightly American I guess, perhaps not, but can play with it a bit :). Should get some use out of it before lame people (is it the same for people as with horses? i.e. can't walk properly?) strike up a protest.

    Also, the other words people suggested were partly amusing (lol bone?!?), but I think fuck or a direct insult is way too strong. I mean, it's never used like 'youre gay!'. It's 'lag (poor connection) is gay'.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kiezo wrote: »
    I did, and knew you would highlight this in your reply. The word intentionally changes nothing.

    Um yeah it does. Lots of people can be racist or homophobic unintentionally...

    Black pupils are more likely to be expelled for bad behaviour than white pupils. Outright racism explains part of it - but the trend is so marked - black boys are six times more likely to be expelled than their white peers that I think people who wouldn't consider themselves racist (and generally aren't) are in their actions. (I know teachers who've seen first hand white middle class pupils getting off with a suspension for drug use for example - whilst a black pupil received an automatic suspension). I don't think that scores and scores of teachers are closet BNP supporters...

    Using gay as an insult - using a minority identity as a form of abuse is homophobic. I accept that it's mostly unintentional but such use of language - and defence of it, is discriminatory.
    Kiezo wrote:
    where do we draw the line? We can't call people idiots because it's offensive to people with low IQ's? We can't use the word 'fat' when describing food because simply using it means we're being anti-obese unintentionally? We're no longer able to refer to male kids as 'boys' because 'boy' was an anti-black word? Give me a break.

    Yawn. Stick to the point. I have never heard of anybody from the Afro-Caribbean community finding 'boy' to be a generally offensive term.
    Kiezo wrote:
    What, you want me to start Googling different comedians routines to see which of them incorporate 'gay' and 'Jew' as insults? I was more meaning comedians who tell jokes that could be taken as homophobic or anti-Semitic, but I have heard the former being used. Regardless, surely using 'Jew' in a facetious comment to your friend is down the racism scale from a comedian telling an anti-Semitic joke on stage to a ton of people.

    Yawn. Again, stick to the point. If you want to discuss racist comedians start another thread. (For the record I think Bernard Manning was a fat racist tub of shit).
    Kiezo wrote:
    You remind me of this guy.

    So by speaking out against the use of ‘gay’ as a term of abuse I’m automatically some kind of caricature. (I don’t think that guy is for real…) Think you’ve really lost whatever point you were trying to make now. Fuck off.
    Kiezo wrote:
    You don't have to be particularly bright to realise they don't mean it in a serious way. Grow up, pick your battles, and move on.

    Can you fucking read? For your benefit:
    I agree - 'gay' has lost its meaning to some extent and I doubt homosexuality crosses the mind of most people using gay to mean shit/crap/etc. To be fair - most of the time it's not used in a malicious way.

    I’m not denying that it isn’t normally used in a serious – malicious way.

    Grow up and move on? I’m involved in LGBT activism at uni and NUS level. I care about LGBT issues and bullying in schools is a massive problem. I luckily had positive experiences, I was lucky enough to have very liberal and tolerant people around me. Thousands of people are not so lucky, many of my friends have had awful experiences.

    As I’ve already said (seriously – can you fucking read?)
    the word 'gay' is still used to describe the gay community - and since most gay people describe themselves as gay the word is still used in another way. I don't think it helps young people coming to terms with their sexuality if they hear the word describing their sexuality constantly used as a term of abuse or a synonym for shit...

    Woo.. A bullying expert agrees with me, what a surprise...
    John Quinn, director of children's charity Beatbullying, agrees: "Using the word gay as a derogatory word further propagates the idea that being gay is a bad thing. The BBC has just greenlighted the use of gay as a derogatory word, therefore it has given credence to the idea that being gay is bad. This low-level homophobia is not acceptable and is outrageous considering how homophobic bullying destroys lives."
    Source.
    Kiezo wrote:
    Seriously, why be wound up and offended over things where no offence was intended?

    I accept that generally no offence is intended – but offence is caused and so it is absolutely right to condemn using the word gay to mean shit/stupid. And the effect of using ‘gay’ in that way is to create homophobia – sexuality is not something that people should think is bad and should be ashamed of, yet using ‘gay’ in the way you think is acceptable does that.
    Kiezo wrote:
    Where is the line drawn between facetious comment to a friend and downright racist? Should we not joke around with our friends at all now incase some overly sensitive, political correct person we don't even know may take offence to it even though they will never hear it?

    What is facetious about using ‘gay’ as a catch-all word in everyday language for shit/stupid/crap? I’m not saying we should be obsessively sensitive, ban any kind of joke that could possibly offend – but I think people should be aware that words can and do have an impact...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    J wrote: »
    Surely only the person saying it would know?

    True enough. But anyway, my question got missed in the big mass of other questions that occurs in P&D so I'm no closure to understanding (excepting a few posts, thanks) whether it's 'right' to feel uncomfortable and then even to challenge people on their usage, or whether it was normal language and had no racial slur connotations at all.

    Interesting read for you Dis:

    http://gaygamer.net/forum/index.php/topic,4500.0.html

    http://gaygamer.net/forum/index.php/topic,4495.0.html

    (on gaygamer, a gaming / news / blog site with a gay bias)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Thanks.. Interesting. :) Range of views really, some gay people don't have a problem with it... some do. I don't think many people take personal offence because none is normally meant - but that doesn't mean it's okay. Anyway I think I've pretty much said all I have to on the subject....
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teagan wrote: »
    Jews were regarded as 'stingy' etc because historically, they were often hounded from place to place, and therefore became money lenders because money was easy to take with you.

    Not actually true. Jews were traditionally money lenders because original catholicism banned Christians from lending money for financial gain, so the only major group active in Europe at the time who could were the Jews. As such many did, as is going to happen (look at our banks), become rich off of it (until they got persecuted and robbed, often by the government of the country they were in). The jealous Christian types then labelled them as money hoarders and greedy misers to justify extremist treatment of them.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Not actually true. Jews were traditionally money lenders because original catholicism banned Christians from lending money for financial gain, so the only major group active in Europe at the time who could were the Jews. As such many did, as is going to happen (look at our banks), become rich off of it (until they got persecuted and robbed, often by the government of the country they were in). The jealous Christian types then labelled them as money hoarders and greedy misers to justify extremist treatment of them.

    I like my story! :)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don't like the word for a group of people to be used as a general negative term because the words we use as so important to the way we think. I also think the "it's a seperate word now" arguement is weak because I don't believe the brain works like that when the links are there. I could be wrong but I think it's likely that using the word 'gay' to mean crappy as well as homosexual WILL cause a link between the two things in ones brain. The model I have of this in my head is if you hear the word gay, your brain hears 'gay', then the two meanings and the brain fits the intended one in by context, which means crap and homosexual are often being associated together in your head. That could be twonk though...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teagan wrote: »
    I like my story! :)

    Nah, your part of the story describes why they were craftsmen rather than landowners.

    Regarding the original question - I can use the word Jew about myself, my friends can use it about me, but fuck me was I angry when these random guys started shouting after a guy I happened to know (which they didn't know) "Oi Jew, come here". When I confronted them about it, it was clear that it wasn't meant in a malicious way, but just the fact that it could be synonymous with something negative was disappointing.
    Likewise I don't use gay, paki, etc. in my vocabulary. I take things lightly, and often don't mind things being provocative, but these expressions I personally can't stand.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Dear Wendy wrote: »
    Nah, your part of the story describes why they were craftsmen rather than landowners.

    Regarding the original question - I can use the word Jew about myself, my friends can use it about me, but fuck me was I angry when these random guys started shouting after a guy I happened to know (which they didn't know) "Oi Jew, come here". When I confronted them about it, it was clear that it wasn't meant in a malicious way, but just the fact that it could be synonymous with something negative was disappointing.
    Likewise I don't use gay, paki, etc. in my vocabulary. I take things lightly, and often don't mind things being provocative, but these expressions I personally can't stand.

    I've never equated in my mind gay with paki though, as paki like nigger is an intentionally derogatory term whereas gay and jew are normal words but sometimes used in a context that would indicate they're negative.

    It's funny how words can be so powerful though isn't it? When it all starts off as just a noise that comes out from us, it can evoke a whole spectrum of emotion.

    We're all Pavlov's dogs I guess.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    katchika wrote: »
    Do you call a corner shop "the paki shop" and a Chinese takeaway a "chinky"?
    the corner shop by me has always been owned by asian people and has always, to my knowledge anyway, been known as the paki shop, or sometimes the end shop

    tis quite odd and not meant in a racist way, tho never said to the people in the shop; obviously in case it does offend
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