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Abortion Doctor thingy
Former Member
Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
Apparently there's a bit of a crisis because so many doctors are unwilling to carry out abortions on "moral grounds." And I say on "moral grounds" because apparently a lot of them are refusing it on social stigma grounds rather than genuine moral grounds. But anyway, should doctors be allowed to opt out of certain procedures on moral grounds, or should they be required to do every job that they've signed up for?
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Carrying out abortions isn't a job that doctors sign up to by pursuing medicine as a career.
Abortion is an emotive subject and people have a wide range of beliefs towards it. The decision to have an abortion or not to is a deeply personal one and must ultimately always be one of individual choice. Likewise the decision on whether to partake in an act deemed acceptable by some and horrific by others should be a personal one.
What makes you say that?
It's called a slave - and I don't believe any society should force a person to do anything they don't want to do - although that doesn't mean there shouldn't be consequences for that decision.
Do you think it is? I don't think many medics would agree with you.
Well no, there's always been an opt out. It's always been one of the many procedures they could be asked to do though, and it is a medical procedure. So should they have to or not? And if not, what do we do about the girls that can't get an abortion? (Obviously the long term aim should be to try and cut the number of women who end up in this position in the first place, but in the meantime).
I've gotta say though, it does make me slightly uncomfortable that a lot of doctors are refusing to do it simply because they don't like the idea of telling their friends, rather than because of genuine moral concerns.
I'm With Stupid basically says what i think. Its a medical procedure. Doctors have to be prepared for anything.
Fuck off, you're having a laugh. Do you really want your GP doing any procedure? Of course not so let's get this into perspective. Not all doctors should/could carry out all procedures.
1. There are specialist units which carry out terminations. As a doctors, if you work there, then you shouldn't opt out. But realistically, who would work there if they didn't want to be involved?
2. Terminations are not life threatening so, of course, doctors should be able to opt out.
No, someone who has principles and will stick up for them. There is no suggestion there that women should not be allowed to terminate their pregnancy, only that this person won't do it.
So long as medics know how to perform a D&C as it's important in cases of missed miscarriages, and diagnostic procedures, I don't really have a problem. And as long as the woman is *always* referred to another doctor for a referral, and not have the process dragged out for them.
The type of doctors who judge women like that don't deserve to be OB/GYNs
Aaah, the bright eyed, bushy tailed statements of the doe-eyed pre-medics, how I've missed it
Whereas I guess we have to put up with members of a profession refusing to carry out some of their duties because of moral/religious objections it is by no means a welcome situation. And when people insist on using so indescribably inaccurate and inappropriate terms such as 'murder' for a medical practice that is nothing of the sort, one has to wonder if their moral compass isn't going to get in the way of offering patients the best care possible in other areas as well.
And even General Practice won't leave someone immune from unplanned pregnancy, wanted pregnancies that were terminated for foetal abnormality - and the care a family needs for that afterwards. Some doctors make their opinions known to their patients, as I heard at an Abortion Rights talk. "I could never do such a destructive thing." "Abortion is illegal after 12 weeks" "How much do you earn? You can pay for it yourself" - and that must stop.
No i'm not saying they should carry out anything in your local GP surgery. I was thinking more about hospitals where i would assume the procedure we are talking about would be peformed? At said units?
Marie Stopes and BPAS take on a lot of cases, including NHS ones.
Likewise I wouldn't want to require doctors to perform any procedure they are not comfortable doing, if you're not happy doing it you're more likely to screw up, be that getting a line into a vein on someone like me, or performing abortions.
I'm a lifeguard, I will lifeguard any session including the naturist ones, and I am happy to do so. Some of my colleagues aren't, so they chose not to work that shift. It's the same principle.
assume for whatever reason, the abortion is needed because it is life threatening. The foetus has already died and a surgical extraction is necessary (arguably the most 'difficult' thing for a surgeon / specialist to do in terms of morals). Would a professional surgeon say 'eww no, I don't like it'. No, they would still carry out the same procedure I think.
If for whatever other reason i.e. unexpected pregnancy - then isn't it one of the fundaments of medicine not to judge / prejudice treatment of patients? It's the same procedure that in a different circumstance you would do, but because of your own morals (opinions) you don't fancy it.
But if you don't fancy doing them then you don't need to work in one of these clinics. But as I said, if it was a doctor in a hospital - they sign up to treat patients, and I think it's their responsibility as a professional doctor to treat them however they can in accordance with legislation. Abortion is legal in the UK, so they may have to do that.
A doctor isn't any profession, there is an enourmous amount of responsibility on their shoulders, and I don't think it's ethical for them to 'shrug' that responsibility if it suits them. But, they can choose whether they want to be a doctor or not, in a village surgery or hospital or in a clinic.
Even if a doctor is against abortion they *must* refer the patient to a doctor who isn't - it's a little more difficult in rural areas where there may only be 1 GP in practice. But even in other fields like General Practice, as I said, no doctor is immune from seeing patients with unwanted pregnancies - for a lot of women who can't afford the £600 for a private abortion, their GP is the first port of call.
It's a little different now that the private abortion providers take a lot of cases. In some district hospitals, there aren't many 'abortion lists' for surgery anymore as the providers are contracted to do NHS terminations. You can never force a doctor to do something against their will though. So long as access to abortion isn't denied, I don't really have a problem with some surgeons opting out, providing that there are other surgeons to do it. Some are indeed on the decrease, but I don't think it's at a crisis point yet. I do have a problem, however, with women having to be exposed to nasty comments from someone thinking they have the moral high ground.
Personally I think the system is pretty good in that a Doctor can opt out, but has to make sure that there is another Doctor who can take over and give medical advice
Yep - BPAS took on my case when the hospital refused me.
Even so, we've had referral letters in the past who had said they are against abortion, and they are referring the client to us, but they have still provided the first signature on the HSA1 form.
Out of interest Vicky, if you don't mind talking about it - did the hospital refuse you on grounds of 'conscience'? If it wasn't, don't worry, I'm always interested in what is said to people in this situation.