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:yeees:
Maybe you should provide a less simplistic counter-arguement then and intellectualise this thread.
Jainism
Buddhism (although Buddhism is debatable because many Buddhists do eat meat, but to kill an animal needlessly is unskillful).
I think Hinduism has an element of non violence and respect for creatures too. I remember in Nepal, talking to a guy who had been on pilgrimages and said that he doesn't even believe in killing mosquitos and is a vegetarian. Something to do with the fact that a mosquito can have the soul of a deceased relative or friend who has been reincarnated in to that form.
Just in case anybody is interested.
That's horrible, really. Why would you get off on hurting another living creature?
Sorry, but people killing for amusement or pleasure (including fur industries) pisses me off. If we're more evolved, shouldn't we be more responsible instead of abusing our perceived power? We're alread killing our planet because of our 'God complex', as well as indirectly killing our brothers and sisters in other countries through our own selfishness (but let's not go too far down the climate change path).
I think we should all come down off our high horses and show our planet some respect (and I know some people will percieve me as being on my high horse, I've apparently been on my high horse defending ethnic groups in conversation too).
How evolved do you think we are? We certainly haven't evolved to the point where we stop killing things and hug trees.
It's all well and good for you being in the position to attend these group meetings, rallies and university courses. For the majority of people they don't have the education or the opportunity to make real change. Yes, it's the corporations and big business' that wreck the world and those are what we need to focus on, no point sitting there and aksing for everyone to change when it's not possible at this entire moment.
Peace out.
Well I was pointing out that some people say 'it was for the greater good' or a 'necessary evil' but I disagree. Was just saying they're arguably justifiable forms of horrible killing because people who 'support' them said it stopped a greater amount of suffering. My personal opinion however, is that they caused more suffering than they stopped. Didn't want anyone launching a broadside on me for 'condoning' it for saying it was arguably justifiable .
Sorry, but what does this have to do with anything?
I'm sharing my opinion on killing animals for fun, not asking people to be like me (and I don't do as much as you imply).
No need to make a jab.
What is the point. If the OP cannot see the irrelevant comparison for themselves, in every day living, then my intellectualising it just won't help.
But you have raised different points which take the OPs comments further and so you deserve a dignified response.
The high horses are being ridden by people who seem to think that killing an insect is akin to not showing respect to the planet somehow. We are animals, we are arrogant enough to think that we are, in some way, more intelligent or more evolved. I would have to question that. We manipulate our surrounding to meet our desire, evolution happens the other way around - we change to match our surroundings.
I don't disagree with the killing for fun, in the same way that I don't disagree with someone arguing that we shouldn't torture animals but that doesn't mean that I would lose a seconds sleep over killing any animal. Just as many animals would quite happily kill me.
Sorry, I meant that as they happened about 40 years before you were born that being for or against such things is really pointless.
I can understand that you might argue that such events should never be repeated, different moral issue. I wouldn;t agree with you of course, but I would understand why you might feel like that.
Species killing species. Happens all the time. Only the over sensitive wworry about it.
And the evolution arguement depends... You say we manipulate our environment to meet our desire? So do birds build nests. I don't see much difference really, but then that's my opinion. We adapt to our surroundings in different ways to animals, but we still do it.
You mean accidentily killing an animal, or for food? If you don't kill animals for fun.
Welcome to the wild... Do animals kill for fun?
I'm not over-sensitive if that's what you're implying.
Really?
Sounds like more than killing animals to me.
Are you going to contribute?
Where have I asked people to be like me (ever?), or claimed myself to be more saintly?
Nah, cats kill and then leave you the dead mouse with its guts hanging out as a present. The rumours that foxes kill for fun isn't true either.
Now you've made it no secret that you're involved in all sorts of environmentalist groups (nothing wrong with that and I commend you) and coupled with this whole "get off their high horses and respect planet earth" stuff just insuiates that you do something while the rest don't. Simple as.
And what about when they kill a spider or insect because it's moving, then lose all interest in it once it's dead? Foxes bury their kill to eat later, which is where the rumours of them wiping out loads of chickens for no reason comes from.
I don't shout out what I do, I've mentioned it on the charity thread but that's about it and mentioned that I work with environmentalists, which I do (paid job)... Just like other people hve mentioned their profession. I'm not blowing my own trumpet and you've made these claims about me before, simply because I made a comment about climate change and us being responsible. Or are you denying that we're responsible at all and should stick our heads in the sand?
Just because you don't hold the same beliefs as me does not make me sanctimonious.
Yes I do believe we should get off our high horses in respect to our planet, we have this speciesist attitude about us which makes us think we can do what we want to animals, or put animals in to heirarchy of what we should feel sorry for in terms of abuse. It's arrogant. It is still beyond me that people can abuse animals and think it's funny. Even if it is only ants.
And I have contributed to the thread, by putting more than a once sentence opinion in to it. Not hard is it?
(An open question to all)
Actually I think that we are both arguing the same point, but ending up at different ends of the spectrum. I agree that we aren't more evolved, but I hold that this is why the human race continues to kill for fun.
I suspect that you are overplaying it someonewhat to suggest that "man" is destroying biodiversity by killing for fun. That would require much more killing than we currently do.
I wouldn't argue though that we are killing without thought or perhaps recognition of the impact of our actions - such as removing hedgerows from fields. The two are not the same.
Good point. Noted.
But then does the bird care tree from which it takes branches? Or the impact on the woodlouse from removing the twig from the ground?
No, I mean deliberate killing of irritants such as ants/wasps/flies etc I don't mean using a magnifying glass on ants because it's "a laugh"
And yes, I include food, I am a meat eater. I was designed that way and evolution has not changed that. Yet.
Makes me think of Peter Singer to an extent.
I think it depends on how much consciousness you believe an animal to have. The law courts were created by us, to maintain order (in theory).
What I was arguing and what may have come out as wrong is this...
That we as humans have the ability for awareness and just like all other animals, we have the ability to feel pain. I believe that because all animals have the ability to feel pain and because we have the consciousness to understand how pain is inflicted, we should be responsible for not inflicting deliberate pain on any living creature, especially not for our own entertainment.
Should dolphins be put on trial for beating up another dolphin for cetacea kicks?
Well courts are a human construct and how would it benefit dolphins to take a dolphin to court? That is assuming they do not have the same awareness of their surroundings as us, or a brain complex enough to comprehend that hurting another living creature for fun is unfair.
I know that a lot of my beliefs are kind of radical in a way, I don't mean them malisciously towards people who eat meat or who kill animals for fun, I don't look down on you or hate you for it... It just think that the act itself is disgusting and that we should respect animals and indeed the planet (because biodiversity is a part of the planet) more...
No no, sorry... I didn't mean it in that way (looking back it could be interpretted like that). I mean that our 'God complex', that we are somehow higher than other creatures, or that we own the world is what's killing the planet. And that God complex of ours is what legitimises killing animals for fun (in my opinion). But then does the bird care tree from which it takes branches? Or the impact on the woodlouse from removing the twig from the ground?
But a bird takes twigs to build a nest which it needs. We don't need to kill ants for fun.
The one exception to the rule however is Mosquito's ... because I know if I see one (usually on holiday in Africa, India, etc) I know they're most likely gonna come for me when I go to sleep and potentially pass on Malaria, yellow fever, etc which threatens my life.
And since they infect something like 70 million people a year I don't plan to be a statistic.
But then I think that works both ways. Some people will argue that being a vegetarian is because we have evolved to a state where we are intellectually more capable of uderstading the pain that other animals feel and therefore we shouldn't kill them. In part that is similar to your argument here.
We kill because that is how evolution has defined our role. So to argue that we shouldn;t do it because "it's not nice" or "it is killing the planet" is to suggest that we are mightier that nature itself. Earth was here before the human race and will be here after us.
Sorry, I was talking about how we change the planet to fit what we want , the implications of that and the assertion that we are better than animals because we are aware of those implications - or rather that we should be. I wasn't comparing it to killing for fun.
Come again?
Did I say you did?
Where did I say that?
Where did I say I didn't care for the environment or that humans weren'r responsible. Of course, my care for the environment doesn't go as far as yours but it doesn't mean I don't care.
It's all about subjective experiences, people don't care much for flies because really all flies do is buzz around and annoy people. A dog or cat though can be your friend. I don't like dogs because I got attacked by one and sometimes I like spiders and bugs crawling around my hand, am I weird, probably, does it justify humans categorising animals into a hierarchy, probably.
It's human.
Here, have a piece of cake.
What the hell gives you the idea that Bush/Blair are killing anyone because they can't stand them? I've heard some silly opinions on the Iraq war, but this takes the cake.
Well, maybe we do need to kill ants for fun as children, thenw e can grow up to be good and enthusiastic hunters.
Yes, earth will be here after us, but whether it will be as abundant with life and whether there will be many humans left in comparison with now is debatable. Surely if we have the intelligence to destroy, we have the intelligence to live sustainably and preserve the human race.
By God complex I don't mean our physical power as individuals, but the idea that we own the earth. Many people would say that we do own it... Perhaps.
If it is in our nature to kill and we have to live by what we have evolved to do then maybe we should ignore human rights? Maybe people with disabilities should be treated as less because we are smarter and superior and have the right to do what we want.
We have evolved a long way, but we have compassion. Whether or not this compassion extends to people of other races, to our planet, to members of the opposite sex, children or indeed animals is entirely individual and often a product of the society in which we live.
The fact is that we have an ability to choose the way in which we behave and it is difficult to draw the boundaries as to who or what has the right to life.