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Thieving Councils to Scrap Refuse Collections

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote: »
    My personal opinion is that 95% of work undertaken by Local Authorities doesn't need to be done and, indeed, shouldn't be done.

    Council Tax is a complete waste of money, and it always has been.

    Except it does, doesn't it? What do you think local authorities do?

    And given that we do need to have things like education, police, fire, housing, social services, etc would you rather it was done by a local council or the central Government?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don't see what all the fuss is about. At home (under Daventry District Council/Northamptonshire County Council) we have a fortnightly bin collectiong.
    One week it is black bins, which is general waste, and then on the alternate week we have a brown dustbin collection, which is another bin the same size for garden waste and vegetable peelings etc.

    Recycling is collected every week, and there are two boxes - a red one with a lid for paper and clothing (but not the Yellow Pages!) and a blue one for tins, bottles, glass and plastic. You are asked to make sure it's washed up recycling but that's no more effort than normal washing up really.

    The things is, you don't see the fuss because your service is a good one. However, elsewhere in the country (even elsewhere within the same city in some cases) the current service is a lot poorer.

    For example, we have no doorstep collection of recyclables, except for a paper bin that gets collected once a month. It's practically useless as you can fill it in a week. If we want to recycle anything, we have to take it all to the supermarket where the bank is. Not got a car? Well then you're a bit screwed.

    I wouldn't mind the suggestion that the council gets the same money from us for doing less, if they only gave us a decent doorstep recycling collection.

    As it is, it's literally rubbish.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Mist wrote: »
    For example, we have no doorstep collection of recyclables, except for a paper bin that gets collected once a month. It's practically useless as you can fill it in a week. If we want to recycle anything, we have to take it all to the supermarket where the bank is. Not got a car? Well then you're a bit screwed.


    By 2010 all councils must offer a doorstep collection of at least two items (I always thought it was three but just been reading up on the Household Waste Recycling Act and apparently it's two!) so hopefully the provision for those with rubbish (haha!) recycling facilities will improve in the next few years.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    BumbleBee wrote: »
    By 2010 all councils must offer a doorstep collection of at least two items (I always thought it was three but just been reading up on the Household Waste Recycling Act and apparently it's two!) so hopefully the provision for those with rubbish (haha!) recycling facilities will improve in the next few years.

    Apparently ours has been trying to argue that "paper" and "card" are two items.

    Sigh.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Oh well.. roll on the olympics

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    xsazx wrote: »
    In areas on recycling schemes such as ours there are specific clear plastic bags for recycling rubbish than bins or boxes

    I live in Canterbury Council area and we use clear bags for recycling (though not glass for some reason) and wheelie bins for the rest.

    My house has a small wheelie bin and even though there are five in our house it still takes two weeks to fill. We're not the most enviromentally conscious people - hell we use disposable nappies FFS - and yet we manage perfectly well. I struggle to see why anyone else can't do the same TBH.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Was there a decision at some point that councils should do the bare minimum rather than trying to provide as much as possible. Surely councils should aim to make life as easy as possible, to improve it for everyone they cover as much as possible.

    I don't for one second believe councils don't provide almost every important service in the UK outside of the health service - but any reduction in what is offered should be seen as a failure. They should try to more, never less without an admission of failure.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote: »
    A bin is designed for four people for one week, so single households shouldn't fill it every week. But we fill it every two weeks and we recycle most things- if we had any children at all we'd have bags overflowing..

    Depends how people live their lives

    There's 4 of us in our household but we hardly ever fill the bin to the top and it's collect just twice a month, our neighbour has 3 in their household and there's is always overflowing ...

    Now we got 3 bin regular, garden waste and recycling bin
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Penny-pinching is the name of the game for councils now. I suspect, and have done for fifteen years, that there just isn't the money to go round. Our council (Conservative-led) is always complaining that the government isn't giving them enough in central funding, but they have committed themselves to keeping down Council Tax. So every intitiative is about cutting back services, such as day care centres, while trying to make a vice look like a virtue:

    'RISE ISN'T ENOUGH' SAY COUNTY TORIES
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    There's never enough money to do all we'd want too. That's true of central Government as well as local (as well as most of us as individuals as well).
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Just heard on 'Money Box' that Council Tax is only 5% of all taxes collected in the UK.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Something else to consider is my parents had their road missed twice recently. One week missed out is not going to be a big problem, but hanging on for another fortnight? More pressure on the collectors not to skip the odd collection...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Do you know what Local Authorities do?

    What's your solution?

    Well my first solution is to cut the salaries of the fat cat Council directors, to be quite honest. There is no need for them to be on six-figure salaries, and my opinion is that council tax shouldn't be raised by a single penny, and that no services should be cut, whilst any LA employee is earning more than the average wage. Second suggestion is to cut waste- my local authority just spent £75k on putting plasma tellies in the staff areas of the town hall. Fantastic expenditure that. My local authority's biscuit expenditure is in six figures, too, make the robbing bastards pay for their own. I'd cut the subsidised staff car parking and canteen whilst I'm at it, too.

    I'm well aware of what local authorities do (GWST worked for the council until very recently) and I think most of it is an utter waste of money. £1.5m on bringing the Tall Ships Race to Tyneside? Whoever decided that was a good way to spend the cash wants shooting, never mind sacking.

    I'm also well aware that the real robbing cunts are the police and fire services- my local authority kept the rise to 2%, but the police put their bit up by 6%. I'd suggest electing police officers and fire officers, it might keep the robbing filth honest (and I can say that with impunity, seeing as the chief fire officer in Tyne and Weartwas convicted of shoplifting from B&Q- obviously that £250k a year isn't quite enough to live on).

    I wouldn't mind if councils replaced the traditional collection with an equal recycling scheme, I'd be all in favour of it. But that's not what they are proposing. They're proposing cutting the weekly collection and expecting people to drive to Tesco's to recycle everything for them. My recycling box is full already, and its another week until it gets collected.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote: »
    I wouldn't mind if councils replaced the traditional collection with an equal recycling scheme, I'd be all in favour of it. But that's not what they are proposing. They're proposing cutting the weekly collection and expecting people to drive to Tesco's to recycle everything for them. My recycling box is full already, and its another week until it gets collected.

    Quite. And this is the central part of the issue. We've had a council tax amounts list for this next year, and it's no cheaper than last year. Yet, for this money, the expectation would be that the bins would be collected half as often. Super. :|
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It's a good job these are cheap, then.

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    seeker wrote: »
    Why you take offense to a factual statement is unclear to me.

    (How hard you work doesn`t seem relevant).

    At your next staff get together with the big cheeses, is there any chance you would suggest that all the services you provide are offered on a voluntary(the ability to refuse the "offer") basis to potential customers ?


    If it's a "factual statement" then please show me the factual evidence.

    And yes sounds like a great idea regarding your voluntary services. So everything is free and then we invoice you on the things that you use?

    So next time you go for a walk round your area do we need someone to follow you and charge you for the miles you walk on the path and a charge for the flowers you walk past and the grass verge that has been cut. You get home to find that your neighbour has applied to build a 3 bedroom extension that will block you right to sunshine in your back garden. So you visit the local planning office (Again being charged for path you walk on and the flowers you pass) to speak to a local planning officer who then charges you directly for the service.

    You decide that you don't want to walk home and decide on the bus. You check the bus timetable to see what time the next bus home is. Which you get charged for to look at. You take the bus home (incidently being charged for the flowers, trees and grass you look at out the window) to find your house on fire. You jump out and before the firemen will hose your house down they ask you to sign in triplicate a pile of forms.

    In theory. Crap idea. In reality. Even crapper.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote: »
    Well my first solution is to cut the salaries of the fat cat Council directors, to be quite honest. There is no need for them to be on six-figure salaries,

    That I do agree with.
    Kermit wrote: »
    most of it is an utter waste of money. £1.5m on bringing the Tall Ships Race to Tyneside? Whoever decided that was a good way to spend the cash wants shooting, never mind sacking

    Do you know how much revenue the Tall ships brought in though? More or less than the £1.5m? Less then sure get shirty but if it pulled in more then surely good business?

    I don't deny that Local Authorities sometimes make bad decisions. BUT they are decisions that are made by people and they do make mistakes. We are constantly under huge pressures to provide services with ever decreasing budgets and I personally think we do a great job.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If it's a "factual statement" then please show me the factual evidence.

    And yes sounds like a great idea regarding your voluntary services. So everything is free and then we invoice you on the things that you use?

    So next time you go for a walk round your area do we need someone to follow you and charge you for the miles you walk on the path and a charge for the flowers you walk past and the grass verge that has been cut. You get home to find that your neighbour has applied to build a 3 bedroom extension that will block you right to sunshine in your back garden. So you visit the local planning office (Again being charged for path you walk on and the flowers you pass) to speak to a local planning officer who then charges you directly for the service.

    You decide that you don't want to walk home and decide on the bus. You check the bus timetable to see what time the next bus home is. Which you get charged for to look at. You take the bus home (incidently being charged for the flowers, trees and grass you look at out the window) to find your house on fire. You jump out and before the firemen will hose your house down they ask you to sign in triplicate a pile of forms.

    In theory. Crap idea. In reality. Even crapper.

    If I understand you correctly, you prefer to bill someone for a service in advance (they may or may not use) ?

    Does that work for me ? ( Can I bill YOU for a service in advance ?) If not, why not ?

    P.S. Almost forgot.It appears we have overlooked something. It`s not The Elephant in the Room that is being ignored. THERE`S A GUN IN THE ROOM.

    Why are you prepared to kidnap and put in a cage anyone who doesn`t pay the bill you sent them ?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    seeker wrote: »
    If I understand you correctly, you prefer to bill someone for a service in advance (they may or may not use) ?

    Does that work for me ? ( Can I bill YOU for a service in advance ?) If not, why not ?

    P.S. Almost forgot.It appears we have overlooked something. It`s not The Elephant in the Room that is being ignored. THERE`S A GUN IN THE ROOM.

    Why are you prepared to kidnap and put in a cage anyone who doesn`t pay the bill you sent them ?

    Holy fucking hell. What in Gods name are you going on about?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Worth remembering this is a thread about refuse collection - let's try to keep close to that ;)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Holy fucking hell. What in Gods name are you going on about?

    Seeker sees tax as armed robbery, which in a way it is, but it's pretty much the only thing he wants to talk about - that and countries.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    countries.. countries? What are these strange imaginary things you mention? ;)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Seeker sees tax as armed robbery, which in a way it is, but it's pretty much the only thing he wants to talk about - that and countries.

    I see. Well he still doesn't make a good argument.

    I understand the theory behind only "paying for what you use" but in reality it's completely unworkable due to the diverse services that councils provide.

    Most of the stuff that the councils do have an effect on everybodies lives in some shape or form which is why it's easier to divide this cost equally (I know it's not strictly equal but you know what I mean).

    Is the argument not due to what you are paying for but that the charge is too high and applied unfairly?

    As for the refuse collection argument.... Our council still performs weekly collections. One week for recycle and the next for general. So I don't understand when some people say that their collections are being cut?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don't see anything that wrong with fortnightly collections in principle but the problem of excess waste is often down to companies using too much packaging. Does an orange need to come in a bag, for instance? An orange has its own natural covering, which incidentally can be put on a compost heap.

    I live on the border of 2 counties, the one I live in still does weekly collections. The one down the road does fortnightly. Some residents have complained about maggots/smells in the summer. Sometimes I wonder what they are throwing in their bins. I suspect a lot of food is wasted and thrown away, hence the smells. People with babies who use disposable nappies, that is understandable, they would no doubt stink in the summer. But it depends where they keep their bin. Some people don't have a back garden or access to the back of their home, so their bin is right outside the front of their home.

    A lot of things need to be changed, peoples attitudes towards waste and recycling, before fortnightly collections can be implemented nationwide. Especially in areas that don't use wheely bins. In Birmingham there is already a big problem with rats and foxes ripping open bin bags.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I see. Well he still doesn't make a good argument.

    I understand the theory behind only "paying for what you use" but in reality it's completely unworkable due to the diverse services that councils provide.

    Most of the stuff that the councils do have an effect on everybodies lives in some shape or form which is why it's easier to divide this cost equally (I know it's not strictly equal but you know what I mean).

    Is the argument not due to what you are paying for but that the charge is too high and applied unfairly?

    As for the refuse collection argument.... Our council still performs weekly collections. One week for recycle and the next for general. So I don't understand when some people say that their collections are being cut?

    Seeker is deliberately abstract with his arguments; I wouldn't worry too much about it. In essence what he's getting at is that it's perfectly possible to be arrested and imprisoned for not paying for a service you don't want, and don't use - which is true, but it's an overly simplistic view. Tax inherently isn't fair, that's kind of the point of it.

    What sticks in my craw about council tax is that it goes up and up each year, apparently with no ceiling. If my services had kept in line with the rise in payments over the past, my bins should be being collected every other day. The fact that now some services appear to be being actively cut - while as Kermit points out, the fat-cats are enjoying six figure salaries and plasma tellies in the break room - is more than a bit rich.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Seeker is deliberately abstract with his arguments; I wouldn't worry too much about it. In essence what he's getting at is that it's perfectly possible to be arrested and imprisoned for not paying for a service you don't want, and don't use - which is true, but it's an overly simplistic view. Tax inherently isn't fair, that's kind of the point of it.

    What sticks in my craw about council tax is that it goes up and up each year, apparently with no ceiling. If my services had kept in line with the rise in payments over the past, my bins should be being collected every other day. The fact that now some services appear to be being actively cut - while as Kermit points out, the fat-cats are enjoying six figure salaries and plasma tellies in the break room - is more than a bit rich.

    So basically what your saying is that he's a cock? ;)

    I sympathise totally with the rising costs but as I work for a LA I know the financial strains that we are under. For me one of the craziest things is the following.

    I work in the ICT dept. Lets say our budget is £1.5m At the end of the financial year if we only spend £1m then we lose the £1/2m that we save. We don't get that carried over to next year or anything. And our budget for next year is £1m not £1.5m like the year before. So we get punished for actually saving money. So what tends to happen is that LA's spend their total allowance which is maybe why you see silly purchases like plasma TV's and pavements being retarred every year.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So basically what your saying is that he's a cock? ;)

    I sympathise totally with the rising costs but as I work for a LA I know the financial strains that we are under. For me one of the craziest things is the following.

    I work in the ICT dept. Lets say our budget is £1.5m At the end of the financial year if we only spend £1m then we lose the £1/2m that we save. We don't get that carried over to next year or anything. And our budget for next year is £1m not £1.5m like the year before. So we get punished for actually saving money. So what tends to happen is that LA's spend their total allowance which is maybe why you see silly purchases like plasma TV's and pavements being retarred every year.

    Who dishes out the money? What is the justification given for such a patently ludicrous system?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Seeker is deliberately abstract with his arguments; I wouldn't worry too much about it. In essence what he's getting at is that it's perfectly possible to be arrested and imprisoned for not paying for a service you don't want, and don't use - which is true, but it's an overly simplistic view. Tax inherently isn't fair, that's kind of the point of it.

    Perhaps I am "overly simplistic".

    A romantic vision of the world were all transactions/relationships are on a voluntary mutually agreed basis.

    Any that involve violence and coercion I find repugnant, to varying degrees.( I`d also understand the view that they shouldn`t be classified as relationships/transactions at all).

    The idea that an individual is the property/chattel of someone else is still accepted in various locations,but was far more commonplace some time ago,so I live in hope.

    So basically what your saying is that he's a cock? ;)

    If the above romantic vision fits your definition of "a cock" then I`d wear that label with pride.

    You can carry on your "diverse services" such as threatening someone before you`ll take away their waste.

    If you were kind enough to remove mine you may find it has more than my "fair share" of vomit, induced by your activities.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Who dishes out the money? What is the justification given for such a patently ludicrous system?

    Dished out by Central Government to best of my knowledge.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    seeker wrote: »
    Perhaps I am "overly simplistic".

    A romantic vision of the world were all transactions/relationships are on a voluntary mutually agreed basis.

    Any that involve violence and coercion I find repugnant, to varying degrees.( I`d also understand the view that they shouldn`t be classified as relationships/transactions at all).

    The idea that an individual is the property/chattel of someone else is still accepted in various locations,but was far more commonplace some time ago,so I live in hope.

    I don't think there's any perhaps about it. You're deliberately obtuse in accepting the affects that practicalities have on ideals - and the world at large. I don't even think your way of things is necessarily morally superior either. Your way would frequently penalise the people who needed services the most, but simply couldn't afford to pay them. You only have to look at the American health care system to see how your way works. Still, I'm in danger of expounding the benefits of tax - which I fear is a separate debate entirely.
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