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I'm behind every terrorist attack ever.

2

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Territt wrote: »
    well still, i havent seen anything that shows he was tortured, i have seens lot of things about the shit he was up to before they got him, i think the problem here is everyone on these board seems to be anti-american?

    Just because you don't agree with torture doesn't make you anti-American. If that were the case we'd be anti-180 other countries (or more) too.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    :banghead:

    You cant be sure he actually is a terrorist. Its not "without question" because a confession extracted under torture is not a real confession.

    If they tortured YOU enough youd admit to the same things, but it wouldnt mean you did them.


    in the same way you cant be sure he was tortured?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    :banghead:

    You cant be sure he actually is a terrorist. Its not "without question" because a confession extracted under torture is not a real confession.

    If they tortured YOU enough youd admit to the same things, but it wouldnt mean you did them.


    and its not just the confession, there was lots of details of what he was up to long before the Americans got hold of him..
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Territt wrote: »
    Ever way, the fact that he is a terrorist is without question, and at the end of the day i think what ever they do to him is justified after the shit he had arranged and organised.
    Really? And how are you better than the terrorists you so despise? And what happened to the right to a fair trial and the concept of justice?

    You'd be far happier if you lived in a country like Zimbabwe you know? In there they don't have any time for human rights and concepts of 'fairness'.
    Or are you up for releasing known terrorists just because you don’t agree with the way the Americans teat the people that attack them.
    :rolleyes:

    No. I'm for never allowing torture and for ensuring basic human rights such as the right to a fair trial and the right not to be unlawfully kidnapped and imprisoned are upheld.

    Because otherwise we're not better than the people we seek to punish.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »

    And how are you better than the terrorists you so despise?

    well for a start i dont go out planing on killing people because i dont like there way of life.

    And what happened to the right to a fair trial and the concept of justice?

    tell that to the people that jumped out of the windows of the WTC to avoid being burned to death, you really think that the people responable for that deserve justice?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    but the chances are that he is not responsible for that.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    but the chances are that he is not responsible for that.

    you really think the Americans just picked a random person to blame it on???:banghead:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Territt wrote: »

    well for a start i dont go out planing on killing people because i dont like there way of life.
    But you advocate using barbaric disgusting practices on other people. You are not much better than them on principle.
    tell that to the people that jumped out of the windows of the WTC to avoid being burned to death, you really think that the people responable for that deserve justice?
    What makes you think that torturing people is 'justice'?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »

    But you advocate using barbaric disgusting practices on other people. You are not much better than them on principle.

    What makes you think that torturing people is 'justice'?

    for a start, i dont say go and find some random person to treat in that way, the fact is that he is a member of al-Qaeda, and now he has to deal what the shit he has got himself into,

    the other thing is that there is still no prove that he has been tortured, just his word on it, but there is without a doubt prove that he is part of al-Qaeda.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It wouldn't surprise me if the Americans did choose a random person, tbh. Torture in Camp X-Ray is well documented by most humanitarian lawyers, and there is documentary evidence of many inmates there simply being swept up in purges in Afghanistan.

    This man, as he has not been convicted by any court, is not a terrorist. The US didn't bother to try him for these crimes, they just went and tortured him. He may well be guilty, but we will never know, because nobody bothered to seek justice.

    We do only have the US' say-so that he is a member of Al Qaeda, and that he's a terrorist. The CIA have a long history of getting the wrong man. No evidence to support anything has been placed into the public domain, and the simple fact is I don't believe any authority that bases its judgment on hidden evidence and on torture.

    If I was tortured I would plead guilty to terrorism whereas I'm about as much a terrorist as Jess the Cat.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Territt wrote: »
    for a start, i dont say go and find some random person to treat in that way, the fact is that he is a member of al-Qaeda, and now he has to deal what the shit he has got himself into,

    the other thing is that there is still no prove that he has been tortured, just his word on it, but there is without a doubt prove that he is part of al-Qaeda.
    Right, so we cannot possibly prove he's been torture but there is no doubt whatsoever he's Al Qaida.

    LOL!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    well for a start he wasn’t just swept up in Afghanistan, or any war zone, he was found in Rawalpindi in Pakistan by the Pakistani Inter-Services Intelligence, he was then transferred to Jordan who decided that the right thing to do was to transfer him to the Americans for the attacks on the US.

    and it wasn’t just the US that was after him because of his membership to AL Qaeda, the British Secret Intelligence Service have been after him for years, so have a number of middle eastern countries.



    “No evidence to support anything has been placed into the public domain”

    What about the large number of statements he himself made before being captured stating his involvement with Al-Qaeda? His statements to other people who have come forward?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Territt wrote: »
    well for a start he wasn’t just swept up in Afghanistan, or any war zone, he was found in Rawalpindi in Pakistan by the Pakistani Inter-Services Intelligence, he was then transferred to Jordan who decided that the right thing to do was to transfer him to the Americans for the attacks on the US.

    and it wasn’t just the US that was after him because of his membership to AL Qaeda, the British Secret Intelligence Service have been after him for years, so have a number of middle eastern countries.
    And that proves what, exactly?

    Are you aware of the disturbingly large number of Guantanamo ex-prisoners who were completely innocent?

    What about the large number of statements he himself made before being captured stating his involvement with Al-Qaeda? His statements to other people who have come forward?
    Loonies have come forward to claim crimes throughout history.

    But that doesn't matter. You keep missing an important point. Several, in fact:

    - any civilised society must believe and exercise human rights, reject torture, offer the right to a fair trial and avoid illegal operations, killings and kidnappings. Regardless of the possible crimes the subject has commited.

    - any government that ignores the above is a barbarian savage regime no better than the 'terrorists' it seeks to punish. And anyone who supports such behaviour is not much better either.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If this man is a terrorist he should have been tried and punished five years ago, subject to the basic principles of justice.

    Torturing people isn't justice, and I would point out that the Pakistani security services are not noted for their compassion and honesty.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Territ; Why have trials at all? Obviously if it as easy as this to find people guilty, why do we have trials in the UK?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Territt wrote: »
    the fact that he is a terrorist is without question

    You are priceless.
    i think what ever they do to him is justified after the shit he had arranged and organised.

    Is alledged to have planned etc.

    Q. How do you know that this man has "confessed" to all these crimes?

    A. Because his accusers have released a transcript of him admitting it.

    Is this your idea of justice in the 21st Century? And how does your comment of "whatever they do to him is justified" stack up with your "i dont go out planing on killing people" when this man faces the death penalty...?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    maybe because he admitted to doing it before we before we was captured, maybe people should stop going on about all this human rights bullshit and remember that there is a reason this man is where he is,

    at the end of the day he is a member of al-Qaeda,
    Al-Qaeda are a militant terrorist organization
    this make him a terrorist
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote: »
    If this man is a terrorist he should have been tried and punished five years ago, subject to the basic principles of justice.

    Torturing people isn't justice, and I would point out that the Pakistani security services are not noted for their compassion and honesty.

    for a start he wasn’t captured 5 years ago, second his only been in American custody at Guantanamo Bay for 6 months.

    And I am not saying that torturing people is ok, what i am saying is that what this man as admitted to doing( before being captured) is a lot worse,
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Territt wrote: »
    maybe because he admitted to doing it before we before we was captured, maybe people should stop going on about all this human rights bullshit and remember that there is a reason this man is where he is,

    at the end of the day he is a member of al-Qaeda,
    Al-Qaeda are a militant terrorist organization
    this make him a terrorist

    A terrorist??? :( :nervous:

    You're scaring me now.

    Release the hounds! Prepare the electrodes! Make sure the tongs are red-hot!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Territt wrote: »
    maybe because he admitted to doing it before we before we was captured, maybe people should stop going on about all this human rights bullshit and remember that there is a reason this man is where he is,
    "This human rights bullshit" eh?

    You really are a moron if you think human rights are bullshit.

    Why don't you talk to those British people, for instance, who "confessed" to having planted bombs in Saudi Arabia after they were tortured? Go tell them we should stop worrying about this "human rights bullshit" and see if they agree.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    the problem i see that everyone on here seems to assumes that anyone that has been sent to Guantanamo is innocent?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Territt wrote: »
    the problem i see that everyone on here seems to assumes that anyone that has been sent to Guantanamo is innocent?

    No they don't, they are working on the principle - one which has been central to western democracy and human rights - that people are innocent until proven guilty, or at least given some sembence of a fair trial. Or even allowed to defend themselves against accusations made against them.

    There are probably terrorists in G-bay, but its equally wrong to assume that there are guilty men there as there is no evidence (other than that extracted by torture) to indicate this. The point is that we have no idea whether anyone held at G-bay is inncoent or guilty, because every principle and method of justice and law has been abandonned, and we only have the US government's word (which is worth what?) to indicate that they are in any way guilty of "terrorism."
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    carlito wrote: »
    There are probably terrorists in G-bay, but its equally wrong to assume that there are guilty men there as there is no evidence (other than that extracted by torture) to indicate this. The point is that we have no idea whether anyone held at G-bay is inncoent or guilty, because every principle and method of justice and law has been abandonned, and we only have the US government's word (which is worth what?) to indicate that they are in any way guilty of "terrorism."


    ok, i agree that there are some men held at G-Bay that shouldnt be, and in a perfect world this wouldnt happend, but you have to agree in this case, the one of "Khalid Sheikh Mohammed" it is more then just evidence extracted by torture??
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Territt wrote: »
    ok, i agree that there are some men held at G-Bay that shouldnt be, and in a perfect world this wouldnt happend, but you have to agree in this case, the one of "Khalid Sheikh Mohammed" it is more then just evidence extracted by torture??

    Is it? I've not seen anything other than stuff released by the US government, normally there is some evidence for the defence too. Thats how court cases usually work.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Territt wrote: »
    ok, i agree that there are some men held at G-Bay that shouldnt be, and in a perfect world this wouldnt happend, but you have to agree in this case, the one of "Khalid Sheikh Mohammed" it is more then just evidence extracted by torture??

    Unfortunately theres no way of knowing, and thats what everyone objects to.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Let's hope it never happens, but if Territt were one day to find himself accused of something, detained, taken to an illegal concentration camp, kept there for years without trial or access to a lawyer and tortured repeteadly he might change his mind about "human rights bullshit" and ''giving people what they deserve".
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    carlito wrote: »
    Unfortunately theres no way of knowing, and thats what everyone objects to.

    There is one quite commonly used way of knowing if someone is guilty of a crime, its not perfect, but it seems to work ok most of the time - a trial with a jury.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Territt wrote: »
    in a perfect world this wouldnt happend

    Hell, it doesn't even have to be a perfect world. We seemed to be managing alright until Bush came to power...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    budda wrote: »
    There is one quite commonly used way of knowing if someone is guilty of a crime, its not perfect, but it seems to work ok most of the time - a trial with a jury.

    I meant there was no way of us knowing (or more accurately judging) since there has been no trial, defence presented, or evidence presented (beyond torture confessions).
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Territt wrote: »
    the problem i see that everyone on here seems to assumes that anyone that has been sent to Guantanamo is innocent?

    They are innocent. They have not been convicted of any crime.

    If the evidence is so compelling they should get them carted off to The Hague. As they haven't been tried I can only assume that the evidence isn't all that compelling after all.
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