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As Aladdin was replying to my post, I assume that I am among the "they" you refer to.
That being the case, you have made a lot of wild assumptions.
Perhaps your emotions are getting the better of you ? ( A wild assumption on my part, admittedly, but your post doesn`t seem to be "objective")
1. Any raise that's under the rate of inflation means that your money will buy less this year than it did last year. Just because you don't get one doesn't mean it's not a valid point. Your money isn't worth as much as it was last year either.
2. 20k is not a lot of money. As the average wage in this country is 27k, there are a LOT of people (ie, over 50% of the population) who are living on more than that. Also, living costs in cities are greater and the further north you go the less living costs are (as a general rule). Hospitals tend to be located in cities.
3. Given that the population is densest in the south-east, that's where the most nurses will be - and this happens to be the most expensive part of the country to live and buy property.
4. As far as graduate or professional jobs go (of which nursing is one), 19k starting salary is good. HOWEVER... the increase in wage over the next 20 years is not. With wages only increasing to £35k-ish over that period, if nurses did have to pay tuition fees (for example), the loan would be written off before they had a chance to finish paying it. An graduate trainee accountant (for example) would start on between 15k-25k (depending on where they worked). In three years, once qualifying, their salary will raise to about 35k. Who has more responsbility?
and finally...
5. There aren't enough jobs for newly qualified nurses - the nhs has cut spending so that departments aren't allowed to take on any new nurses when one leaves. My friend (who is graduating from a nurses degree in june) has very little hope of getting a job when she does graduate, and has tales of 300 newly qualifieds turning up for 2 jobs. The system needs them but can't afford them.
No there aren't
The 27k is a measn average, there are only 50% of the population above the average if it is a median.
The median wage is lower than the mean, and in fact I would not be surprised if the average nurse were earning more than the median......
Don't know what the average nurse earns, but the median wage is £447 a week, or £23250 (ish) pa.
From:http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=285
Do you think you are among the "they"?
I struggle to see how I have made "many" wild assumptions. It was a general observation reflecting the way the thread went. The fact that Jim V felt he had to say something just reinforces my point.
Also let me point out that in a thread that's about the money, it's quite possible that money would of major (if not only) concern.
Alladin says that a)nurses are underpaid and b)20k is not a lot of money if you live in London on your own
How this labels him as a "money is of only concern" guy, escapes me.
I'm not sure that the reason you think is the real one. This isn't simply a case not being able to "afford" something, but more of there being enough nurses in the system, just not necessarily in the "right" place.
E.g. More nurses in the community reduces the need for nurses on wards.
Really? A little simplistic there, but your predjudice against civil servants is noted
There are many civil service jobs which would fit the role you assume for them but many that don't. I know of one person who still has trouble slleeping over a decision he made regarding funding for treatment which he declined. The funding was for a child to go to the US for [potentially] life saving treatment and the child died within weeks. He made the correct decision, but that doesn't help his soul.
However, the chap who collects my taxes probably isn't in such a demanding face-to-face job. Yet even they don't have life easy. I personally remember getting death threats (in a previous job) and that was something low level and predominantely paper pushing...
What the focus on nurses says to me is that other civil service jobs aren't as valued for what they do for us, regardless of what their true worth is.
TBH IMHO if you are training to go into nursing, or to be a doctor then it should be written off after you have done 5 years in the NHS anyway.
Same goes with other degree courses, if you work for the state afterwards then the state should recognise that. It's one thing I like about the way that US forces work...
However, as i mentioned, it was an anecdotal point - it was her experience from where she was training.
Yeah, i agree, but at the moment you've got up to 25 years to do it. Grrr. I'm earning a similar wage to a newly qualified nurse and i'm only *just* covering the interest (inflation) payments on my loan, let alone paying back the capital. And i didn't get the full loan either, i've only got £7000 to pay back unlike many of my peers who have between 9 and 12k.
Retention has improved since wages were increased but it isn't the whole story. It has become harder to rise through the ranks now, as it should be, and so there are fewer gaps at the bottom rung.
In addition, and this is relevant for doctors too, the Govt put huge effort into increasing course places and they are just starting to churn out the numbers. It looks a lot like there are far too many.
It's worth noting that the nurses in the community are usually more experienced. Mainly because they have to work on their own initiative.
It's pretty close..
So the question again, particularly to nurses, is: do you think wages in the NHS make it a sufficiently rewarding career choice, or is it something one does in spite of the pay rather than because of it?
Edit: I also wanted to mention that before I had to start caring fulltime, I was getting nearly £15,000 a year. With overtime, including Sundays, I could make about £230 a week. I felt I was doing alright, but didn't have much of a life. That was in construction.
To what, sorry? I'm a bit confused...
And I think that was always my friend's point - she's graduating when the fruit of Labour's labours are (is) occurring... there has now become a surplus of 'fully trained' nurses and a deficit of jobs, possibly because of the sheer quantity that have just been through university.
*shrugs* I'm not sure they'll ever be able to justify or quantify the pay of any civil servant, whether they be police, nurses or 'paper pushers'. I do, however, believe that unless there is a bloody good reason, they should pay in line with inflation. Otherwise it's just not equivalent pay.
Not quite the same as dealing with sick and dying people everyday, and their relatives, is it?
It isn't?
Most nurses don't deal with dying people every day- the nurses on £35k at NHS Direct certainly don't.
Besides which, why does dealing with dead people mean you should get paid more? Blood money? There are many people in the public sector who do as important a job as nurses- such as benefits workers, housing workers, social workers- and don't have anyone being bothered about their salaries.
My original argument wasn't about nurses, as I feel that nurses just about receive a fair wage for their work (although a few extra grand wouldn't go amiss, its not as bad as it was), it was about public sector workers in general.
So you don't think paying the top 5% huge bonuses each year doesn't drive inflation? That'd be why a top of the range ferrari still costs 2 and 6, yeah?
January and February are great months if you have a house in a fashionable part of town to sell as the City boys have all that bonus money to burn.
The solution, of course, is to cool the property market down, rather than paying those at the bottom less.
Brown's poor wage rises have more to do with the fact that he's bankrupted the country, though, rather than anything to do with inflation. We have no gold left, as Brown sold it, and we have no money. It's a good job we're in the EU otherwise we'll end up like Argentina.
Completely different situation. Argentina's crisis was caused by provincial governments incuring large amounts of debt. They were unable to cover this debt because of how the exchange rate was fixed.
Top range ferrari's are expensive because they make so few of them, not because city dealers make money.
And city dealers make big money because they make big profits for their firms. Those profits are then taxed (as are the big earners themselves) to pay for nurses etc.
You could off course tax them more and then the business head off to countries with a better tax regime.
And given that the multi-million bonuses are paid to so few people you might as well say football players wage fuel inflation or that Robbie Williams et al are doing so....
No.
Yeah, I agree actually. I have a personal interest in nurses wages though as my partner will be training as a mental health nurse in September.
I'm not talking about the multi-million bonuses, though, because they are paid to a minority. But a lot of City workers will pull in £30k or £40k bonuses, which get pumped into housing and consumer goods, driving inflation.
I do think footballers do drive inflation, of course they do, 20 years ago they were earning a quarter- if that- of what they do now. The reason why house prices in much of Cheshire have gone up five-fold in as many years is because of all the "new money"- footballers, musicians, City types, etc.
Put it this way, inflation isn't going to be cured by giving the bloke on minimum wage a tiny pay rise.
I'd agree with that. But then I don't think its going to be cured by cutting top-wages either. If inflation is going to be cured its linking wage increases to productivity and GVA increases. And probably the reason it will never be controlled is that its bloody hard to measure what these are.
How do you measure productivity though? And how do you link pay rises to it? What always happens is that the people who put the effort in- the front-line workers- create the productivity and the senior management claim the plaudits and justify their mega salaries because of it.
To be honest, I am all for taxing the rich more, and if they move their money offshore then that's fine- confiscate all their property, tear up their passport, and don't let them or their family back into the country.
On the basis of...