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Discovering the Americas.

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
Hi folks - I'm a newbie on here, so you may have had this discussion before, in which case, I apologise.

Had a good, heated debate with friends the other week... what would the world look like today, if Chinese explorers had discovered the Americas instead of Western European ones?

Its only an accident of history that Europeans got there first, when you think about it - what do you good people think?

Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    the mind boggles... for one thing china would be the big super power, likely keeping rule over america in some sort of empire.

    then they'd get american-chinese and complain they're spelling it wrong :lol:

    no idea, the possibilities are endless.

    do you think the chinese would have killed off the indiginous people?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jezzer wrote: »
    Its only an accident of history that Europeans got there first, when you think about it - what do you good people think?

    Bollocks.

    The Spanish/Portugeuse/Italians had a history of exploration towards the Western side of the hemisphere before the Chinese. And even if they did find America (which they already did)-Native American's have Sino blood-they'd probably still have to build the railroads because we're racist cunts.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jezzer wrote: »
    Hi folks - I'm a newbie on here, so you may have had this discussion before, in which case, I apologise.

    Had a good, heated debate with friends the other week... what would the world look like today, if Chinese explorers had discovered the Americas instead of Western European ones?

    Its only an accident of history that Europeans got there first, when you think about it - what do you good people think?

    Language, religion, ethnicity...

    Maybe more American Indians would be alive too.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Replicant wrote: »
    the mind boggles... for one thing china would be the big super power, likely keeping rule over america in some sort of empire.

    No, or britain should be the superpower keeping control of America. Clearly not, China would have lost it just as we did, especially after the fall of their monarchistic system.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yerascrote wrote: »
    Bollocks.

    The Spanish/Portugeuse/Italians had a history of exploration towards the Western side of the hemisphere before the Chinese. And even if they did find America (which they already did)-Native American's have Sino blood-they'd probably still have to build the railroads because we're racist cunts.


    Not really the point, mate. And we all have African blood in our veins if you want to be really picky - the primordial spread of our ancient ancestors which put Sino blood in the native Americans' veins can hardly be equated with the discovery and colonisation that took place a few hundred years ago.

    The essence of my question was to ask 'what if?' - not to invite pedantic denials that it might ever have happened.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    the borders of any possible countries would be vastly different. there may not even be country borders if china 'owned' the entire landmass, as when the europeans got there, there was various empires (english, french, spanish, portuguese...) exploring at similar times.

    the archetechure would be different. it certainly wouldn't be christian. the native americans (sioux, maya, aztec etc....) would probably have similar problems with the invaders.

    football wouldn't anywhere near as popular in south america.

    the distances from china to chile/peru is over twice the distance from portugal to brazil/argentina.
    also, its about twice as far from china to california as it is from uk to north-eastern usa.
    any chinese explorers would have had a right mission on their hands.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The Europeans discovered America did they?

    That must come as something of a shock to the indigenous people there.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    drumbeat wrote: »
    the distances from china to chile/peru is over twice the distance from portugal to brazil/argentina.
    also, its about twice as far from china to california as it is from uk to north-eastern usa.
    any chinese explorers would have had a right mission on their hands.

    Sure about that?

    I mean, travelling from the North East coast of China Eastwards, you're likely to land in America far quicker than if you leave the coast of Portugal.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Way too many 'what ifs' and 'unknowns' to be able to give anything more than a guess. However assuming that they discoverd it not too long before the Europeans (ie less than a couple of hundred years) which is the most likely scenario - they wouldn't have had time to fully colonise it and what you're likely to see is a clash in middle America between Europeans moving West and Chinese moving East.

    Neither side would likely have the strength to fully dislodge the other and so you'll see minor border clashes and some redrawing of boundaries between East and West. ironically the Indians are likely to do better out of this. Just as they were treated relatively well in Canada and those parts of North America where there was a battle for control between the British and French, they'll be treated well as allies in the battle for control between the Europeans and the Chinese.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It would have become a European colony anyway. I doubt the Chinese would have colonised it in vast numbers. The Spanish and Portugese would have probably butchered them along with the indigenous population. The Chinese never faired well against European armies.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote: »
    The Europeans discovered America did they?

    That must come as something of a shock to the indigenous people there.

    How could the "indigenous" people there have discovered it? :chin:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    carlito wrote: »
    How could the "indigenous" people there have discovered it? :chin:

    They migrated there through the bering straight then went down all the way to South America, leaving various peoples about etc.

    What I wonder, is how were there people in South America when they arrived? :chin:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    They migrated there through the bering straight then went down all the way to South America, leaving various peoples about etc.

    Hence they were not "indigenous." Indigenous means originating in and inhabiting a territory.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    carlito wrote: »
    Hence they were not "indigenous." Indigenous means originating in and inhabiting a territory.

    This was several thousands of years ago though.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    What I wonder, is how were there people in South America when they arrived? :chin:

    Obviously the migrated too. Either that or it was Starbucks.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I dunno but it makes me want to play the board game Risk, world conquer - none of that mission business.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    This was several thousands of years ago though.

    Doesn't really make a difference to the definition. "Native" peoples would be a better description...

    ...however I think we've answered the original question of the thread. Some Chinese did end up in America before Europeans, but since they are not fundamentally a colonial/expansionist civilization it made little difference.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yerascrote wrote: »
    Originally Posted by drumbeat
    the distances from china to chile/peru is over twice the distance from portugal to brazil/argentina.
    also, its about twice as far from china to california as it is from uk to north-eastern usa.
    any chinese explorers would have had a right mission on their hands
    .


    Sure about that?

    I mean, travelling from the North East coast of China Eastwards, you're likely to land in America far quicker than if you leave the coast of Portugal.

    yeah, i'm sure. look at a globe.

    for a start, within modern day china the north east section (roughly north of beijing) doesn't have a coastline, without sailing around korea anyway. north korea has a small border with russia. and besides, china of 500 years ago wasnt the china as we know it now. the northern section of modern day china wasnt part of the ming dynasty.

    purely by looking at a globe, i'd say that uk to florida is roughly the same distance as sailing from china to the tip of alaska. getting to somewhere between vancouver and california would be a significant bit further.

    the uk to newfoundland isnt far at all. about half the distance (as the crow flies) to florida/bahamas.

    china to (northern) chile is pretty much the opposite side of the world. where as portugal to rio de janerio is under half that distance.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    lisbon to boston is 3k miles, shanghai to oakland is 6100
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    carlito wrote: »
    ...however I think we've answered the original question of the thread. Some Chinese did end up in America before Europeans, but since they are not fundamentally a colonial/expansionist civilization it made little difference.

    They weren't Chinese though, they were wandering nomads. They developed small 'tribes', like were still evident in North America, but in different parts of the world these 'tribes' merged or were conquered by one stronger one.

    I've seen a good animation of human expansion, but I can't find it now. :( We started in North Africa though :yes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    minimi38 wrote: »
    lisbon to boston is 3k miles, shanghai to oakland is 6100

    thanks;)

    also, this talk of the definations of natives, migration, indigious peoples etc doesnt really matter.

    we're talking about the last few hundred years exploration. not tens of thousands.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    minimi38 wrote: »
    lisbon to boston is 3k miles, shanghai to oakland is 6100
    And the pacific is harder to sail
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    there is a theory that china did get there in the 15th century.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1421_theory
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    carlito wrote: »
    Doesn't really make a difference to the definition. "Native" peoples would be a better description...

    ...however I think we've answered the original question of the thread. Some Chinese did end up in America before Europeans, but since they are not fundamentally a colonial/expansionist civilization it made little difference.

    They took over all of America which suggests they were pretty expanionist and I'm not sure that I wouldn't classify the Aztecs and others as colonial (or perhaps genocidal would be a better description)

    Though by Chinese I read it as the state which evolved into modern China, rather than ethnic relatives who took a different route.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    carlito wrote: »
    Doesn't really make a difference to the definition. "Native" peoples would be a better description...

    ...however I think we've answered the original question of the thread. Some Chinese did end up in America before Europeans, but since they are not fundamentally a colonial/expansionist civilization it made little difference.
    I think around 10,000 years ago people from Asia came over.

    One thing I wonder is that if people from the continent of Asia did go over and take the land, would more Natives have survived throuh to today? I mean because of all the diseases that came over from Spain and Portugal, the cmmon cold killed a lot of Natives.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The Chinese would have taken the same diseases.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote: »
    No, or britain should be the superpower keeping control of America. Clearly not, China would have lost it just as we did, especially after the fall of their monarchistic system.

    do you think so? I wonder if they'd do a better job of keeping an empire under control :chin:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    minimi38 wrote: »
    The Chinese would have taken the same diseases.

    What, smallpox and the common cold? I don't know.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    China saw smallpox centuries before Europe. Oldworld diseases spanned the whole of Europe and Asia, but they weren't as devastating because of innoculations (in the case of smallpox) and resistance.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    carlito wrote: »
    How could the "indigenous" people there have discovered it? :chin:

    Perhaps on departing the womb, from whence they came ?
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