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ffs.
Anyway, did I read wrongly or was there some implication that British Muslims don't queue... or say sorry when they're wrong? That's not to even mention that I don't think apologising or queueing are exclusively British attributes either -- despite what anti-German/French/American/Japanese propaganda might have us believe.
The individuals in question are - without a doubt - deluded and reprehensible. They're no reflection on the British Muslim community though, of course.
Yeah, you're wrong. You might want to read that again.
I live in place where the muslim community is massive, I've grown up with it, I've gone to school with it, I get along with that community. A stones throw from where I live is where 1 of the 7/7 bombers lived and its this part of the community I have so much hate for, which IMO is fully justified. But I also see law-abiding muslims who would never commit such an attrocity but still have this hatred for Britain/England and its this that REALLY gets to me when they are living in our country and getting all the benefits living in a counry like England gives you but then preaching hate about it!! If this makes me racist then I put my hand up, I'm racist, but I don't think it does!!
Now the point is clearer, I agree very much. If people of any race and walk of life hate this place so much, why stay? Surely if it's good enough to stay, it's good enough to like.
But a contribute could be a lot of people find they aren't treated very well by small minorites of other people, thus making them not like the country? I don't know, I'm just guessing here.
Someone joins my sports team, but the only time they come to training is when they've got a twinge and want the team physio to have a look. It would not be unreasonable to say to such a person "train for real, or leave".
Now just to clarify, because ommision is as good as racism apparently, I am not saying that all muslims only come here because we have benefits and they think they can sponge forever. What I'm saying is that when someone joins your community, your culture, you want some evidence that they're giving back, that they enjoy the culture in all it's glory, not just for the benefits (like a team physio). Training for a sports team is hard work, you get cold, you get muddy, you get angry, you get shouted at, you get it right, you get it wrong, and you get a physio and a doctor right there if you need them. All I would want from a team member, is evidence of effort at training, not just taking advantage.
And as such, I think what lickalotapuss, and many like him want, is evidence that the muslim [feel free to insert variant] community are making an effort to take part of bits of british culture. Being british is not loving everything and believing everything you could ever possibly list about what british is (and I personally believe that's not possible so multi-faceted is it) it's loving and believing parts of it, wanting to improve others, wanting to stop others, and having no opinion on yet more parts of it.
I have lived/grown up and gotten along with that community too, I think they balance their pride in their religion and their integration into "British" "culture" very well indeed. As for their preaching about the ills of this country and culture, well if that makes you a target for vitriol and finger-pointing then I guess I'd better watch my back. In my opinion it is a sign of a broad and enquiring mind to be able to recognise problems and disadvantages a country and nationality has, while also recognising the good things to come out of it (in this instance the welfare state etc, something I'm sure you're pretty keen on too -- as most people are!). Are you seriously saying that in order to be a worthwhile citizen of Britain you have to be blindly patriotic and willing to stand up and fight/lay down a die? That's a total crock.
Fair fucks to you, I think understanding the reasoning behind it is key here. Not blind, impotent rage.
"Our" country? I'm not sure who you're speaking of here... though I'd hazard a guess that you mean white Brits. Or possibly those of any colour who express blind loyalty.
I'd rather a critical mind of any creed or colour preaching of the good AND bad, than patriots preaching about Britain as if it's the land of milk and honey. I guess I should pack my bags
Exhibit B. What the fuck is "our country"? White people? Non-Muslims? I'm British, I'm born in Britain, and I'll criticise the establishment of this country as much as I fucking want. Religion and race has absolutely nothing to do with it, but you seem to want to make that distinction. Sounds like you've got a right chip on your shoulder about muslims.
Incidentally, I wonder how many muslim people would be against their family members joining that other wonderful British establishment, the NHS? Me thinks it's the actions that their family members would be carrying out that effects their feelings on the decision, rather than the fact the idea of them "serving Britain."
...
To me that 'our' applies to anyone that wants to be an active part of it, someone who will usually respect other citizens and have a reasonable level of support and respect for it's institutions.
We have a Church of England, so some respect for Christianity (although that doesn't mean you have to be Christian, just not attack people who are), we have a democracy, so some respect for that, we have armed forces, so some respect for anyone that choses to fight for them.
Edit: The above is no a definitive list, but some examples.
I'm not saying anyone should be a puppet, but a little respect goes a long way.
I suspect the reason racism is being dragged into this again, and the reason that Muslims are coming across in a bad light is that unfortunately the tiny minority of Muslims who have extreme views and attitudes are very vocal about them which makes it hard for anyone to see the clearer fairer picture.
quite.
Lickalotapus probably has since put it better than me.
I was using you to make a point, british isn't fufilling all the things on everyone's list, just a couple of things.
Eg, I'm not a fan of democracy, or rather, i'm disenchanted with it, because it doesn't work.
And by saying that they wouldn't be happy that their family member joined the military is inciting hatred? Being un-British? What?
Before you account for the current situation, there are many people out there who view wars and the military as profoundly wrong and who would not want to voluntarily become part of it.
But when you take the current situation into account and consider the fact that if you join the army you might be sent to take part in one of the most morally repugnant wars in human history, the only wonder is why would anyone want to join.
Britishness has nothing to do with it. The day Britain is fighting a war to defend itself and protect its people (like it happened in WWII) you will see many folks wanting, or at least tolerating the concept of taking up arms.
Don't be so fucking patronising.
All I've seen so far in this thread is a vague concept of "our country" used to bash muslims, then a hasty bout of backtracking of Jade Goody proportions, as everyone points out that it's quite possible for non-muslims to feel the same way. Quite funny really.
I don’t think we got involved with the second world war to start in order to defend ourselves, i think it had more to do with protecting, or trying to protect our interests in Poland?
Yes obviously. If someone doesn't come to the same conclusion that you do, they must be reading the wrong thread. So are you gonna contribute something, or continue nitpicking?