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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    LacyMay wrote: »
    I don't remember any ever being in any of my schools (if they were they kept it quiet!), but i remember a year or two ago there was two or three that started in the primary school and there was a big fuss about letting "people like that" mix with the local children. Thought that was quite sad cos theys only little. Most little ones i've seen have been well behaved, and they need to learn like everyone else. I think they told them they couldn't go to the school in the end or something.

    Two came to my primary school for about a term. I didnt really get to know them, but they played football just like everyone else :/ (well, I didn't often play football cos the big boys bullied me :( but I collected pretty stones :D)

    and wth is up with the smileys??
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don't know about Romanies but I can almost say for sure all Irish Travellers are the same in their attitude. I lived next door to a family of 11 or 12 for 6 months and have had numerous encounters elsewhere, all civil people but if you get on the wrong side of them they'll knock you for six. It's a pack mentality they have.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    That's is something that I envy them for. The fact that they still have a strong sense of community and are truly willing to defend one of their own. It seem sthat they have something we can learn from them.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
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  • SkiveSkive No discipline. No morality. No respect. New ForestPosts: 15,263 Skive's The Limit
    Kermit wrote: »
    and local communities should have more powers to move illegal camps on quickly.

    But what sort of answer is that?
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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What other answer is there? Kermit has already said that there should be more legal camps. But it is my experience that people don't respect what is not theirs and not their responsibility. If they are not part of a given community, which in general they're not because they don't hang around long enough to become part of it, then they won't care about the state in which they leave it or the way they treat their neighbours.

    At least with legal camps there is motivation to be well behaved.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    they've been moved on now, think they went up to the park :)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Skive wrote: »
    But what sort of answer is that?

    My answer.

    There should be more legal camps for them.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote: »
    My answer.

    There should be more legal camps for them. Illegal camps should be broken up and moved on quickly- councils shouldn't have to get court orders to move them. Illegal camps caused untold damage, and, as always, its us that has to pay for it to be cleaned up, not the people who do the damage. I'd rather not have to have my local council fork out over a hundred grand because of them.

    Bollocks mate. Some illegal camps cause damage - a lot don't. Again its only the ones you see. Quite often travellers don't get a chance to clear up 'cos they get an hours eviction notice, then they get blamed for leaving the place in a mess (happened to some friends of mine).
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Considering the state that the camps I've seen have been left in, I find that hard to believe. Who would live like that and actually plan to clean it up. If you're going to leave it tidy, you live tidy.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Maybe if people still want to debate this thena new thread in politics and debate should be opened, as it stands the original query which was where did ballerina stand with the gypsies has been cleared as they've moved on, so this thread has served it's purpose as far as I can see.

    But maybe it's best if we just left this to die now, as there is obviously a difference of opinion.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote: »
    It is only the ones I see, but I've seen quite a few and its the same story every time. I presume that those on legal camps and on their own land don't create the same issues, though.

    As for this bit, I'd still blame the travellers- if they weren't illegally camping there wouldn't be the mess, so the blame lies squarely with them, and they should have to pay for the clean-up. There should be more legal camps and land set aside for them, and illegal camps should be clamped down on severely.

    You're talking absolute bollocks mate, about something you know fuck all about.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote: »
    Considering the state that the camps I've seen have been left in, I find that hard to believe. Who would live like that and actually plan to clean it up. If you're going to leave it tidy, you live tidy.

    Of course there are anti-social elements. No one is claiming otherwise. What I'm taking issue with is Kermit's assertion that all travellers act that way. They don't. Trust me, I've visited enough people on site to know what I'm talking about.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If you ever speak to people in rural (or suburban areas with green spaces around) and discussion of gypsies come up people will say pretty much exactly what Kermit has said. London-based social workers might think most gypsies are law-abiding people that never make a mess but not many others in areas affected would agree.

    The overwhelming majority of gypsies that illegally invade private land do not leave it in a respectable state. Decent, law-abiding people understandably get pissed off. (And from experience I've found the police pretty unhelpful too as far as law-breaking gypsies is concerned. Dunno whether they're scared or if it's just laziness).
  • SkiveSkive No discipline. No morality. No respect. New ForestPosts: 15,263 Skive's The Limit
    So the answer is to have more legal camps?
    Kermit & Fiend, Woulld you be happy to have a legal camp down the road from you? Because most people wouldn't. A lot of people don't like gypsies and wouldn't be prepared to allow a legal camp in their community.

    Read and learn.
    http://www.cre.gov.uk/gdpract/g_and_t_facts.html
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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If you ever speak to people in rural (or suburban areas with green spaces around) and discussion of gypsies come up people will say pretty much exactly what Kermit has said.

    What. all of them?
    London-based social workers

    Who's a social worker? :confused:
    might think most gypsies are law-abiding people that never make a mess but not many others in areas affected would agree.

    and how many travellers sites have you visited?
    The overwhelming majority of gypsies that illegally invade private land do not leave it in a respectable state.

    Your evidence for this is...what?
    Decent, law-abiding people understandably get pissed off.

    PML! :D You're such a cliche.
    (And from experience I've found the police pretty unhelpful too as far as law-breaking gypsies is concerned. Dunno whether they're scared or if it's just laziness).

    Yes of course you have. :rolleyes:
  • SkiveSkive No discipline. No morality. No respect. New ForestPosts: 15,263 Skive's The Limit
    If you ever speak to people in rural (or suburban areas with green spaces around) and discussion of gypsies come up people will say pretty much exactly what Kermit has said. London-based social workers might think most gypsies are law-abiding people that never make a mess but not many others in areas affected would agree.

    The overwhelming majority of gypsies that illegally invade private land do not leave it in a respectable state. Decent, law-abiding people understandably get pissed off. (And from experience I've found the police pretty unhelpful too as far as law-breaking gypsies is concerned. Dunno whether they're scared or if it's just laziness).

    Bollocks.
    I live in an area that not only has a legal camp, but is often 'invaded' by travelling groups. They leave a mark, but they don't cause have the mess people would have you believe. It's the old people and the city types who've now moved to the country that seem to have the biggest problem with them.
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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ...we haven't even got into the issue of land rights and property rights yet...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If you ever speak to people in rural (or suburban areas with green spaces around) and discussion of gypsies come up people will say pretty much exactly what Kermit has said.
    99% of whom would have never seen a gypsy within 500 yards of them, let alone experience illegal camps in their community.

    Though I believe you when you say many of them would speak against travellers. That's Daily Mailesque middle Englanders for you.
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Stalin's Organist Posts: 13,327
    (And from experience I've found the police pretty unhelpful too as far as law-breaking gypsies is concerned. Dunno whether they're scared or if it's just laziness).

    Judging by the ones that invaded our town for a while, it's the fact they were bearing arms at the police. ON OUR SCHOOL FFS. Whislt we were there, watching, the Gypsie's designated leader guy went, shotgun in hand, towards the officers.

    They left loads of empty white lightening bottles, stella cans, and various empty booze bottles around, rubbish, and all sorts.

    Also, the other places they moved too, plenty of mess was left. Including the local discovery centre place, blocknig the road off.:rolleyes:

    I can't say most of my encounters with gypsies have been good. They even tried to get me and a mate to come out of the cinema (God knows why, I dread to think) by telling us "Cinema's closed, you gotta go on train to chelmsford with us". I was stoned off my face at the time too. I laughed for a bit then went and saw a film. I honestly wonder about them.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Some good, some bad. If they break the law they should be treated same as everyone else. If they don't break the law they should be treated the same as everyone else as well.
  • SkiveSkive No discipline. No morality. No respect. New ForestPosts: 15,263 Skive's The Limit
    Some good, some bad. If they break the law they should be treated same as everyone else. If they don't break the law they should be treated the same as everyone else as well.

    I think a lot of people woul prefer to assume that most gypsies are 'bad though'. It's easy that way.
    Kermit certainly thinks it would be a good idea to 'send in the JCBs', into illegal camps if they don't move on quick enough. That is to say either either they get their homes destroyed or they move on to somewhere else where they'll get exactly the same ultimatum.
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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit certainly thinks it would be a good idea to 'send in the JCBs', into illegal camps if they don't move on quick enough.

    And how much time would you give them, or would they be allowed to stay for ever? Because I'm quite sure there's not much chance of this happening:

    Concerned homeowner: Oh, I'm terribly sorry but you appear to be blocking the path and this park. You're making a little bit too much noise and you're leaving an unreasonable amount of litter. I don't suppose you'd mind tidying up and then moving onto another area where you're not allowed to stay?

    "Traveller": My, I'm terribly sorry. We weren't aware we were causing bother. We shall have departed by sunrise tomorrow.
    That is to say either either they get their homes destroyed or they move on to somewhere else where they'll get exactly the same ultimatum.

    Well if they're not allowed to be there either...
  • SkiveSkive No discipline. No morality. No respect. New ForestPosts: 15,263 Skive's The Limit
    pah1986 wrote: »
    Well if they're not allowed to be there either...

    Read this.

    http://www.cre.gov.uk/gdpract/g_and_t_facts.html

    They've got nowhere to go, so they go where they can and all the while live with racist abuse, and under threat that they'll be moved on any day.

    What would you do?
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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    There's a legal site just up my road - never had any problems with it. Wouldn't even know it was there.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Work to get more authorised sites. Petitions, protests etc. Speak to local councillors. Get it brought up in parliament. Not break the law.
    from racial equality site....90% of Gypsies across the world now live in houses.

    There's a solution. Get a house instead of moving from one illegal site to another.
    Even when Gypsies and Irish Travellers live in houses their culture and heritage stays with them.

    Hurrah! No problems there.

    This is the thing that really bothers me with the racism/race equality umbrella. Gypsies are not above the law just because they're a race and have to live on the road. They can't just come and diminish our way of life because theirs have been affected by urban growth.

    If they're on an authorised site, like the ones that lived close to me were, fantastic. All respect to them if they've come here, contributed to our economy and got jobs. Wonderful. But the ones that set themselves up on car parks, fields and the like (which I've also witnessed) - that's not on.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Skive wrote: »
    They've got nowhere to go, so they go where they can and all the while live with racist abuse, and under threat that they'll be moved on any day.

    What would you do?

    Buy some land or a house?

    Not being funny mate, but as you will know (since you have known some gypo's yourself) that inside some of those caravans are like fucking palaces. So it's not really a question of cash is it?

    They should buy land like everyone else and pay the fucking taxes and bills that come with it!

    Edit: By the way I'm not actually against them
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    pah1986 wrote: »
    And how much time would you give them, or would they be allowed to stay for ever? Because I'm quite sure there's not much chance of this happening:

    Concerned homeowner: Oh, I'm terribly sorry but you appear to be blocking the path and this park. You're making a little bit too much noise and you're leaving an unreasonable amount of litter. I don't suppose you'd mind tidying up and then moving onto another area where you're not allowed to stay?

    "Traveller": My, I'm terribly sorry. We weren't aware we were causing bother. We shall have departed by sunrise tomorrow.

    Well if they're not allowed to be there either...


    You could try treating them as humans. Let be fair plenty of the legal campsites are in the worst condition councils can legally keep them in, so don't be suprised if many gypsy's show a distinct unwillingness to live in them.

    Treat them like humans and you'll be suprised that they're no different from anybody else.
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