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Is it offensive or wrong

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
To seperate society in to working class, middle class ect?

I had a chat with my flatmate and it was about art classes and I said how the art campus for my university is very white middle class, whereas the campus I'm on is mostly working class people from ethnic backgrounds.

She said that believing in classes segregates people and also believes that a lot of hate can come from it. For example, one guy she knows has worked very hard and has made money and then people would take snipes at him because he's middle class now.

Any thoughts?
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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Depends what you mean by class.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No one separates people into classes. Class comes about from the economic situation of that country and how the country works. In a capitalist country there's always going to be that divide and class will sort itself out.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yep, some people hate others because they belong to a different class. That's wrong. But class still exists. Same as its wrong to hate people on basis of race, but race still exists
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    When you have genuinely worked hard all your life, and people start taking shots at you because of your success, you know you've done something right.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    class schmass
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yep, some people hate others because they belong to a different class. That's wrong. But class still exists. Same as its wrong to hate people on basis of race, but race still exists

    Indeed
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kind of a side-point really but this bloke who's a friend of my brother-in-law, who has travelled a lot around the world said once "I've only known one society who's more classist than the British - and that's the Chilean". :o
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don't think its offensive or wrong, I just think its largely inaccurate these days.

    The problem is that when people talk about the "upper class" they mean the preening toffs who bray in good university towns; when people talk about the "working class" they mean the tracksuit-clad dole-dossers.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I was offended when I was told I was the lowest class you could get because neither of my parents were working. It's not nice to think of yourself as the bottom rung. So by and large I generally disregard class.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yep, some people hate others because they belong to a different class. That's wrong. But class still exists. Same as its wrong to hate people on basis of race, but race still exists


    actually race to the extent of skin colour doesnt exist, there are very pale black peopel and very dark white people, and lots inbetween, its one of the silliest things to judge a person by

    half the english population would be black from their perma tans then :lol:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Meh, it depends. Some people should know their place...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well that was a useful contribution. Thanks. :)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    migpilot wrote:
    class schmass

    Why? Some chav with 8 children is equal to an erudite, Oxbridge educated person? Shit no.

    Class is what makes life.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    To seperate society in to working class, middle class ect?

    ?
    Depends what class Your in....
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Nah i like people being divided into class.

    Or do i. I don't really know what the difference is between the classes.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ahh i think classes are wrong in general. all it does is generate hate and a superiority complex for the "upper classes"

    people are people, now matter what theyre parents were, how much money they have, or any of that.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think if you want to see yourself as 'upper class' or 'middle class' because of your success then thats fine. I just don't like it when people put themselves at different level and seem to have th need to find a different group of friends at 'their' level because of their career change. Making others feel below just because you earn a few k extra than them a year is totally wrong.

    I bring this from my friends auntie. He said she became a nurse so she decided to rent a house in the nicest area of the city (£800 per month renting) and started to make new friends while totally cutting off those that supported towards becoming a qualified nurse. She put herself at another level thinking she is another class. I just don't see the point.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    mrbox99 wrote:
    I bring this from my friends auntie. He said she became a nurse so she decided to rent a house in the nicest area of the city (£800 per month renting) and started to make new friends while totally cutting off those that supported towards becoming a qualified nurse. She put herself at another level thinking she is another class. I just don't see the point.
    And what about the people who think that just because you've worked hard, earned a lot of money and bought a nice car and house, that you're a snob?

    I think that there are far to many factors to class for anyone to really be pinned down. Education, salary, assets, type of job (unemployed, unskilled, skilled, professional, business owner), social circle with which you associate. I think in the past, if you told people one of these attributes about you and your familiy, they would be able to accurately predict the others, and put you into a class. And while these attributes may often be linked, not reliably enough to label people based on a few (which explains why someone like the Beckhams get called Chavs). And for things like studies and research, I think looking at any of these aspects individually is far more important than coming up with an obscure class to put someone into.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    And what about the people who think that just because you've worked hard, earned a lot of money and bought a nice car and house, that you're a snob?

    Good point, I overlooked that.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The problem with this thread is that no one has defined what they mean by "class". Is it cultural or economic? Is there more than one definition? What purpose does "class" serve?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Heyoka wrote:
    ahh i think classes are wrong in general. all it does is generate hate and a superiority complex for the "upper classes"

    people are people, now matter what theyre parents were, how much money they have, or any of that.
    Tbh, I've grown up in a "working class" town and am now living in a very wealthy area of London... I have found far more superiority complexes in my home town and inverted snobbery where if you have an accent that suggests you're from the south east or more than two GCSE's you're automatically a middle class privilidged bastard who knows nothing of the hardships of life.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    The problem with this thread is that no one has defined what they mean by "class". Is it cultural or economic? Is there more than one definition? What purpose does "class" serve?
    See I don't know where you're from (Birmingham? For some reason I thought you were living in Brixton.), but where I'm from there's almost a nationalist solidarity, but with working class undertones. I mean in that many people from lw income backgrounds adopt the label working class as a part of their identity. I've never met anybody from a more affluent background with a complex about being 'middle class'. That's my experience.

    What are your definitions of class Blagsta?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I used to live in Brum, I now live in Brixton.

    What I mean is that there are at least 2 competing definitions going on here. There is the cultural/social definition, which can be loosely divided into lower and upper working class, lower and upper middle class and upper class/aristo. This is loosely defined by job, attitudes, culture, what sort of school you went to etc.
    Then there is the Marxist definition which is about your relationship to capital - basically whether you have to sell your labour to survive or not - working class Vs boss class (with some people also positing the middle classes as a "manager class" who sell their labour to survive but whose self interest lies more with the owners).

    Then there is also the A, B1, B2, C, D, E classes that market research bods use.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I've grown up in a working class ex mining town, and most of the people in my town are unemployed because they're either old or lazy. My dad earned an ok wage as a train driver, and because i didn't go to the local school - people thought we were snobs.

    Now i go to school in the next town, and when i first went there everyone was afraid of me because of where i come from. They all thought i'd be a mouthy cow who'd deck them if they looked in my direction. And when they asked what primary school i went to, no one had ever heard of it. :rolleyes: It's quite interesting. Now my parents have split and my mum only works part time as a dental nurse, we're on a very low income. But i still associate with the people in my home town and my friends (who all live in the next town) who are alot better off then me and are i guess 'middle class'
    But they can't always associate with me because they've all grown up in a better area with wealthier families and don't really know any different. I actually feel that i'm at the advantage because i feel i've experienced more.

    I think it's interesting that even though they'd be considered 'middle class', and i'd be 'working class' that i've gained more experience in life that what they have so far. I don't think classes have much point, but they're always going to be there.

    if that makes sense
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Here's Class War on the subject
    There definitely is such a thing as class and the class system will continue to exist
    as long as there is capitalism, wage labour and governments. Superficial things may
    change, such as home ownership and holidays abroad for some of the working class
    in the UK. Class society is a violent, miserable way of organising a society.
    There are broadly speaking three classes; ruling class, middle class and working
    class. The ruling class have to fight each other and stay on top of everybody else.
    The middle class can produce competitors for political power with the ruling class
    and they work very hard to keep society running smoothly by keeping the working
    class under control.
    The working class fights back spasmodically against the other two classes sometimes
    on a massive scale. The rest of the time the working classes fight each other.
    In identifying who is who in the class system, wealth and power are the key factors.
    In order to make a new world without class divisions and the misery that they create
    for everyone we must first destroy the old world and its class system.
    During a revolutionary period the middle class will split and part of it will side with
    the revolutionary sections of the working class. Equally, the working class will split
    between those who support the revolution and those who side with the bosses.
    The ruling class does not secretly conspire to oppress us, most of the time they
    don't need to. They actually believe their own propaganda. As a class they operate
    by internal consent, mostly in the open. They are of course also capable of plotting
    and planning ahead with the aid of the middle class and when the need arises, will
    use every dirty trick in the book.
    And finally the ruling class rules but does not actually govern. That is left to the
    State's managers, the politicians and civil service, on a day-to-day basis.

    http://www.zabalaza.net/pdfs/varpams/class_cw.pdf
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ballerina wrote:
    most of the people in my town are unemployed because they're either old or lazy.

    Are they the only reasons?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    Are they the only reasons?
    and that there aren't really any opportunities here, it's a bit of a dead end place.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ballerina wrote:
    and that there aren't really any opportunities here, it's a bit of a dead end place.
    Hrm... I know people at home who say there are "no jobs" in Wrexham, there are always jobs for people who want them (I've never had any real issue about finding new jobs, but then I have always stuck with barwork)... But they're usually fairly monotonous and don't pay too well. I've worked in Burger King, factories, bars, I've cleaned the pee-salt out of men's toilets and can see why people wouldn't want these jobs. Often you come home feeling empty, tired, depressed.

    I was lucky. I've done these and now I managed somehow to get in to a university, but for people who don't want to go, or who have commitments at home and can't go, I can see why people would hate to work packing chicken in to a box because the time drags and there isn't really any chance to make a career out of it.

    At the same time, I know a lot of lazy people who don't even bother to look for a job.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ballerina wrote:
    I've grown up in a working class ex mining town, and most of the people in my town are unemployed because they're either old or lazy. My dad earned an ok wage as a train driver, and because i didn't go to the local school - people thought we were snobs.

    Now i go to school in the next town, and when i first went there everyone was afraid of me because of where i come from. They all thought i'd be a mouthy cow who'd deck them if they looked in my direction. And when they asked what primary school i went to, no one had ever heard of it. :rolleyes: It's quite interesting. Now my parents have split and my mum only works part time as a dental nurse, we're on a very low income. But i still associate with the people in my home town and my friends (who all live in the next town) who are alot better off then me and are i guess 'middle class'
    But they can't always associate with me because they've all grown up in a better area with wealthier families and don't really know any different. I actually feel that i'm at the advantage because i feel i've experienced more.

    I think it's interesting that even though they'd be considered 'middle class', and i'd be 'working class' that i've gained more experience in life that what they have so far. I don't think classes have much point, but they're always going to be there.

    if that makes sense
    In Wrexham because my Mum is from down South people think I was brought up in a mansion and often treat me with a bit of an attitude. I guess that culturally my Mum's middle class, but she works part time as a civil servent and my stepdad is a nurse... No idea what that makes us.

    I've been given a lot of shit because people think I come from a wealthy background (when really I was brought up on benefits by a single parent until the middle of my teens), just because I am relatively articulate and because I hold very liberal views on certain issues. It really bummed me out because I was sometimes treated morally inferior, or like an enemy just because I read broadsheet newspapers and talked differently.

    I also noticed that not only was the snobbery awful from the less affluent people, but also from those who have a little bit more money. Now I'm living in somewhere more affluent and have served millionaires at the bar and they have been lovely.

    Being down south, especally being in Surbiton makes me feel a bit common. But then at the same time, there doesn't seem to be the same class identities here as there does in Wrexham. I was surprised actually because I thought I'd be treated like riff raff and talked down to. It has been quite the opposite.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Hrm... I know people at home who say there are "no jobs" in Wrexham, there are always jobs for people who want them (I've never had any real issue about finding new jobs, but then I have always stuck with barwork)... But they're usually fairly monotonous and don't pay too well. I've worked in Burger King, factories, bars, I've cleaned the pee-salt out of men's toilets and can see why people wouldn't want these jobs. Often you come home feeling empty, tired, depressed.

    I was lucky. I've done these and now I managed somehow to get in to a university, but for people who don't want to go, or who have commitments at home and can't go, I can see why people would hate to work packing chicken in to a box because the time drags and there isn't really any chance to make a career out of it.

    At the same time, I know a lot of lazy people who don't even bother to look for a job.
    I think more often than not, people are better off on the dole than having a job here. Also, people here have usually lived here all their lives, and just end up never going anywhere. There is a slightly richer area of my town, on the hill next to us, but they all work in surrounding areas and have cars.
    It seems that people often don't know any different, so don't feel the need to go further.
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