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Racism in the Big Brother house

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Me too.

    I haven't watched the programme but I have yet to hear anything on the news which would suggest that anything racist, specifically, had been uttered.

    Wasn't there bullying last year too?

    Exactly.

    If we take the piss out of American, Scouse, Brummy etc. accents, it's banter. If we take the piss out of Indian/South Asian accents, suddently it's racist.

    This country needs to get a fucking grip on reality. Just because a person has a different colour skin to you shouldn't stop you taking the piss out of them if they're being annoying.

    EDIT: Was just looking back at all the stuff about p*** etc. I don't see why that word should be construed as racist. Pakistan means land of the p***s just as Kazakhstan means land of the Kazakhs. Bloody Thought Police.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    How about debating whether to eat something she has prepared because you don't know where her hands have been?

    I didn't watch that incident but someone at work who did said it was clearly in reference to her being Indian.

    And if this woman had weighed 20 stone it'd have been a reference to eating too many cakes.

    It isn't racist to abuse someone you don't like. It isn't even racist to abuse them with racist language. And its a fucking joke that people can get a criminal record for drunkenly calling someone a p*ki bastard but not for calling someone a fat bastard.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    briggi wrote:
    It is always worth remembering [before you try and extract pity for men from women - ha ha ha] that men have ferociously and relentlessly attacked and smothered women through their behaviour and their words for centuries.

    Erm, well I guess I should be held responsible for the wrongdoings of men since men began then?
    But I see, now the poor ickle men can't take a few home truths like the suggestion than a more potent female influence in politics could change the world!?

    That's not what she said. She said we should get rid of male politicians and have female politicians, because women are the only ones that know what they're talking about. Oh and 'poor ickle men' sounds a bit too sexist in that context if you ask me. Derogatory, even.
    It is an offensive suggestion, as nary the most militant of feminists (and the lovely Stargalaxy believes there are even many just on this site) want to punish men by doing to them what was done to women of previous generations, but men are still largely so terrified of - and repulsed by - feminists [male AND female] that they take any advancement or call for further equality as being crazed vengence and view it as an attempt to dislodge men from the position of almighty power that they STILL maintain.

    What position of power is it that I hold over a woman again? Perhaps the fact one day I'd like to get married and settle down - which according to greer is suppressing female sexuality. I admit I have not read everything she's written, but I've read some of it - enough to get a grasp for the kind of beliefs she holds. She says herself, she does not want evolution, she wants a revolution. She compares men to apes, and goes on about how superior women are.

    I am a feminist, but there's a difference between promoting equality, and calling down the opposite sex.
    As for her "sweeping statements" and - indeed - very strong views, well they are inherent to any polemicist. Germaine is an easy target as she refuses to piss off just because some people [largely men, it has to be said] give her a bit of stick. Brava, I say!

    My belief is, and forgive me as I believe you will disagree with me - is she makes very very bold, aggresive, anti-men at times statements, in order to incite people, there are always people who like to stir people up and in my opinion, she is one of them. Her beliefs are that women deserve everything men have - that is fine. However, by throwing insults at men and putting on a big show about it all the time, she causes offense. Of course, to the 'poor suffering' women which is you seem to think of women (referring to your first paragraph in that men have oppressed women to societies), it's lovely to have a go. In reality, most of the women I know think she's a bit of a twat anyway.

    It's not that she 'refuses to piss off'. It's that she refuses to stop being a bitch about it, she has to constantly make men feel inferior. And if you think that is rubbish, then read some of the articles she has written, and the language she uses when she speaks of men. Like we're some kind of 'beast' or enemy to be defeated.
    Oh and to stick slightly more on topic, she is not calling all people couch potatoes; by any stretch of the imagination.

    In the context it read to me like she was calling people who watched big brother couch potatoes.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    EDIT: Was just looking back at all the stuff about p*** etc. I don't see why that word should be construed as racist. Pakistan means land of the p***s just as Kazakhstan means land of the Kazakhs. Bloody Thought Police.

    Just like Ireland is "da land of de Oirish"
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I've been having quite a think about this over the past 10 minutes and I've had some interesting thoughts.

    This actually stemmed from quite a dull and otherwise un-noteworthy Spanish oral class I had last term. We were discussing freedom of speech with reference to the Borat film ie. why are only Jews allowed to make anti-semitic jokes? Then I got thinking - why can Dr. Dre say the word n****r and I can't? Am I allowed to call people crackers etc because I'm white and say words like paddy, mick because I have about 1000 years of Irish heritage behind me? Or are only fat people allowed to call other people fat? Or ugly people call other people minging? Where will it end? Surely they are all observations based on someone's physical appearance.

    After a lot of thinking I arrived at this conclusion - by having such no-go areas when it comes to racism, surely that only serves to segregate people further. It seems to me that if you want to insult someone, hurt someone etc. without being accused of being a racist, you have to make damn sure they're the same colour as you.

    By throwing up rules against what you can and cannot say further emphasizes the fact that there are differences between black people, white people, asian people, mixed race and everything else. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but it isn't exactly the correct basis of a society where all people are supposedly equal (unless you're Nietzsche) if the law treats people differently depending on their ethnic origin - surely that is racist.

    If this society wants to be truly equal, then, just as I can call people fat, ugly, smelly or whatever else, I should be allowed to make jibes about people's ethnic origin just as they should be allowed to make jibes based on mine.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote:
    It isn't racist to abuse someone you don't like. It isn't even racist to abuse them with racist language. And its a fucking joke that people can get a criminal record for drunkenly calling someone a p*ki bastard but not for calling someone a fat bastard.

    Hadn't he just been wrongfully arrested as well, which seems to be adding insult to injury (as well as explaining why he might be a bit pissed off)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I've been having quite a think about this over the past 10 minutes and I've had some interesting thoughts.

    This actually stemmed from quite a dull and otherwise un-noteworthy Spanish oral class I had last term. We were discussing freedom of speech with reference to the Borat film ie. why are only Jews allowed to make anti-semitic jokes? Then I got thinking - why can Dr. Dre say the word n****r and I can't? Am I allowed to call people crackers etc because I'm white and say words like paddy, mick because I have about 1000 years of Irish heritage behind me? Or are only fat people allowed to call other people fat? Or ugly people call other people minging? Where will it end? Surely they are all observations based on someone's physical appearance.

    After a lot of thinking I arrived at this conclusion - by having such no-go areas when it comes to racism, surely that only serves to segregate people further. It seems to me that if you want to insult someone, hurt someone etc. without being accused of being a racist, you have to make damn sure they're the same colour as you.

    By throwing up rules against what you can and cannot say further emphasizes the fact that there are differences between black people, white people, asian people, mixed race and everything else. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but it isn't exactly the correct basis of a society where all people are supposedly equal (unless you're Nietzsche) if the law treats people differently depending on their ethnic origin - surely that is racist.

    If this society wants to be truly equal, then, just as I can call people fat, ugly, smelly or whatever else, I should be allowed to make jibes about people's ethnic origin just as they should be allowed to make jibes based on mine.

    Thinking about it, that makes perfect sense. Why nobody thought of it sooner I'm not sure.

    Still, it's really offensive for anyone to hear a commentator call someone a '******'. Or anyone else for that matter. The main problem with racism isn't low level bullying, it's the possibility of races attacking each other en mass. It's like a human response, if someone of your community does something, like sheep we follow.

    So we need to integrate the communities, break down barriers of language, make no differentiation between someone with black skin and someone with white, yellow or green skin for that matter.

    There was a good southpark episode actually, where there were loads of complaints about the kids drawing or something that was 4 white stick men hanging a black stickman. But at the end, it turned out the kids were so unracist, they didn't even see that there were 4 white ones and 1 black one, it was just 4 stick men to them.

    Food for thought, anyway :chin:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It doesn't matter if they would do it on their own or Not, its still racism.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ShyBoy wrote:
    There was a good southpark episode actually, where there were loads of complaints about the kids drawing or something that was 4 white stick men hanging a black stickman. But at the end, it turned out the kids were so unracist, they didn't even see that there were 4 white ones and 1 black one, it was just 4 stick men to them.

    There's another one where Cartman throws a stone at Token, then it becomes a race hate crime. Funny how an attack on someone on another race automatically a race hate crime to many.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    P*** and n***** are slightly different though, in that they are inherantly racist, because they assume that "they" are all the same (they being people of a particular colour). Fat bastard is an insult, based on someone's appearance. Black bastard is an insult based on someone's appearance. N***** and P*** are used to refer to someone from Nigeria, or Pakistan, and I assume that they were never intended as insults originally. However, it's slightly different when you're using them to refer to someone just because they have black or brown skin, unless you actually know they are from those countries. I agree that if people have a problem with people using a particular term, they shouldn't start using it themselves - that goes for black people using n*****, gay people using queer, or any number of other terms. But I think there is an inherant difference between using n***** to refer to all black people and Poles to refer to Polish people or even a derisory term, such as using Frogs to refer to the French.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ShyBoy wrote:
    Erm, well I guess I should be held responsible for the wrongdoings of men since men began then?

    Uh-oh, here comes the hyper-sensitivity part. There is nothing personal about it. I haven't personally been opressed by a patriarchal society to the degree that women of different cultures still are to this day, and the way that women of this society have been in the past (and in some instances still are) but it doesn't effect my role in the grand scheme of male/female relations.
    That's not what she said. She said we should get rid of male politicians and have female politicians, because women are the only ones that know what they're talking about. Oh and 'poor ickle men' sounds a bit too sexist in that context if you ask me. Derogatory, even.

    To be perfectly honest I don't really care if it sounds derogatory or sexist, it wasn't intended as such, but I suppose I will have qualify it with an explanation. The intent was merely to illustrate how men are so quick to compare the small ways in which women now try to claw back equality with the ways in which men used to try and keep equal rights and priviledges from women. Men are so hard done by these days, you know. They haven't a fucking clue! They should read more, really.
    What position of power is it that I hold over a woman again? Perhaps the fact one day I'd like to get married and settle down - which according to greer is suppressing female sexuality. I admit I have not read everything she's written, but I've read some of it - enough to get a grasp for the kind of beliefs she holds. She says herself, she does not want evolution, she wants a revolution. She compares men to apes, and goes on about how superior women are.

    Again, not talking about you personally. Germaine herself is not inherently against the institution of marriage, but is vehement that women will be informed and enter into partnerships (legally binding or no) because they fully wish to and for NO other reason. Not because it is the done thing, not because their patriarchal society deems it necessary, not because it is viewed as being the point at which a woman's life becomes complete (well, excepting childbirth OF COURSE). When she rails against marriage she is railing against the idea that used to be pertinent that if a woman wasn't married then she was no good (in looks, status, reputation and so on). Anyway I'm not quite sure why we're discussing your life goals re: marriage and settling down, as like I said I was speaking about the position of power that men in general still hold.
    I am a feminist, but there's a difference between promoting equality, and calling down the opposite sex.

    Indeed... ? As I said before, she's a polemicist. It is her self-proclaimed role to states the extreme of a view and shine the spotlight on it to become food for thought in the public domain. Feminists themselves agree and disagree with her new theories and commentaries to varying degrees.
    My belief is, and forgive me as I believe you will disagree with me - is she makes very very bold, aggresive, anti-men at times statements, in order to incite people, there are always people who like to stir people up and in my opinion, she is one of them. Her beliefs are that women deserve everything men have - that is fine. However, by throwing insults at men and putting on a big show about it all the time, she causes offense. Of course, to the 'poor suffering' women which is you seem to think of women (referring to your first paragraph in that men have oppressed women to societies), it's lovely to have a go.

    Of course she causes offence! What's the problem with causing offence? The entirity of this thread is seemingly all about being able to insult people for whatever reason you want (which I don't agree should be acceptable, for the record)! You get offended by it? Just forget it. Other people - like myself - find it enlightening and (dare I say it) entertaining. She is - after all - a public figure as well as being an academic, remember.
    In reality, most of the women I know think she's a bit of a twat anyway.

    Well that's alright. I myself don't know a single woman who thinks she is a "twat". Like I said, they agree with different aspects of her works to varying extents. I would be worried if I knew someone who thought the author of The Female Eunuch was twattish. Luckily for me, I don't :)
    It's not that she 'refuses to piss off'. It's that she refuses to stop being a bitch about it, she has to constantly make men feel inferior. And if you think that is rubbish, then read some of the articles she has written, and the language she uses when she speaks of men. Like we're some kind of 'beast' or enemy to be defeated.

    Damn right she's a bitch, that's why she's so threatening to people. It IS in her steadfast refusal to piss off, pipe down, tone down those comments, soften her views that she has gained her reputation as a feral bitch. Since when was being a bitch an inherently bad thing anyway; sure no one wants to be called "stupid bitch", "little bitch", "ugly bitch" - all lovely terms applied liberally to women each day (or even to men, generally with the intent of emasculating them it has to be said). At least Germaine can qualify her bitchiness with "crusading bitch" or "mouthy bitch" or "academic bitch". Something that requires a bit of acumen, if you like.
    In the context it read to me like she was calling people who watched big brother couch potatoes.

    Probably was. Would it make me a "presumptive old hag" if I pointed out that there probably aren't an awful lot of Guardian readers who would be offended by her making that statement ;)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    P*** and n***** are slightly different though, in that they are inherantly racist, because they assume that "they" are all the same (they being people of a particular colour). Fat bastard is an insult, based on someone's appearance. Black bastard is an insult based on someone's appearance. N***** and P*** are used to refer to someone from Nigeria, or Pakistan, and I assume that they were never intended as insults originally. However, it's slightly different when you're using them to refer to someone just because they have black or brown skin, unless you actually know they are from those countries. I agree that if people have a problem with people using a particular term, they shouldn't start using it themselves - that goes for black people using n*****, gay people using queer, or any number of other terms. But I think there is an inherant difference between using n***** to refer to all black people and Poles to refer to Polish people or even a derisory term, such as using Frogs to refer to the French.

    Actually the N word is derived from "Negro" and not someone from Nigeria. There's a country called Niger ffs as well lol!

    ETA:So you'd have no problem calling someone from Pakistan a P***?
  • BunnieBunnie TheSite's sweetie pie Posts: 6,099
    I am with Kermit on this one, I feel we now live in a society that is so worried about causing offence that we now dramatise things so much. My asian friend cannot see what the fuss is about, and I know I cant.

    I will agree, there is an element of bullying from the three of them, however, Shilpa is there of her own accord, nobody is forcing her to be there, and if she was so upset by it, then she would have walked.

    I dont feel we have a particularly racist nation, just one that has gone overboard on political correctness.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But debating whether to eat something prepared by someone from a certain race/ethnic background is not bullying- certainly if the person is not around to hear it.

    Whether it is full-on racist I don't know. But sure as fuck it's based in deep racial stereotyping ignorance and prejudice. In this case meaning 'Indian person' equals 'dirty person who wipes their arse with their hand'.

    Other incidents, such as some contestants apparently being unable to learn the woman's name and saying 'let's just call her the Indian' might not be racist but are extremely patronising and uttered from a position of ignorance and stupidity.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    racial stereotyping or national stereotyping?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I've only seen clips of Big Brother today...

    I think referring to her as the 'Indian' and not making any effort to pronounce her name is pretty fucking rude. If the tables were turned and I was in the house and it was full of Asian people I'd appreciate them learning my name and not referring to me as 'The British Woman' whatever. It shows ignorence on Jackiey's part. As for the 'she's a dog' comment from..is it Danielle? That isn't racism, it's just her being a two-faced bitch, especially as she then went into the bathroom with Shilpa and called her a 'lovely beautiful woman'.

    Kermit I don't understand why making racist comments isn't being racist?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Rachael wrote:
    Kermit I don't understand why making racist comments isn't being racist?

    He wasn't saying that.

    Calling someone a racist term instead of, say, calling them fat isn't racism it's bullying.

    Suggesting that the person may be, in some way, inferior because of their race is racism.

    I understand the comment about "Do indians eat with their hands" was made and on Five Live the comment from the former race relations representative (or whatever his job was), who is himself indiand, pointed out that the comment wasn't racist because that is indeed often the case in india.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote:
    And if this woman had weighed 20 stone it'd have been a reference to eating too many cakes.

    It isn't racist to abuse someone you don't like. It isn't even racist to abuse them with racist language. And its a fucking joke that people can get a criminal record for drunkenly calling someone a p*ki bastard but not for calling someone a fat bastard.
    Other than that a person has some say in how much they weigh, but no say in their ethnic makeup.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Just watching BB now and that Jade is even more horrible and vile than I ever first thought, hope she gets smacked in the mouth.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Uncle Joe wrote:
    Other than that a person has some say in how much they weigh, but no say in their ethnic makeup.

    So what about calling someone lanky? Or ugly?

    The second you start saying that certain words are ok to use and certain words aren't then freedom of speech ceases to exist. Simple as that. Freedom of speech means you are free to say WHATEVER YOU LIKE and if you're offensive, defamatory, whatever, then you get what's coming to but once we start permitting words and not others, then the acceptable vocabulary will shrink daily as there is always some tosspot who will take offence to a seemingly innocuous word.

    Incidentally, whilst I'm not too au fait with Indian dining techniques (though Indian is a rather confusing word - is she punjab, hindi, what?), large parts of SE Asia eat with their hands. I know most Sri Lankans do it and the Sri Lankans are one of the most civilised people on earth. There is a very strict etiquette when it comes to eating with one's hands.

    Just because our culture thinks of it as uncouth doesn't make it so.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well, all I can say is that Jade Goody is a bloody psycho. How much has she just flipped over oxo cubes and chicken for gods sake? Get a grip.

    They definitely are bullying her in some weird way, I'm not sure if it's racist though.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    .
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    After watching tonight's show. It's less to do with racism imo. Just wee bitchy girls looking for control, Jermaine summed it up perfectly I think.
  • littlemissylittlemissy knit chick Posts: 9,972
    I have just sat down and watched tonights show and I saw no racism. All I saw was Jade throwing her weight around and bullying another member of the house. It wasn't racially motivated, just really stupid and showing Jade in a very poor light. Maybe now she will disappear from our screens into the obscurity that all ex-BB contestants have.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Makoto wrote:
    Just watching BB now and that Jade is even more horrible and vile than I ever first thought, hope she gets smacked in the mouth.

    I wholeheartedly agree. How that vile, uncouth, backward, talentless woman ever became a multimillionaire 'celebrity', I will never know.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think it can be said that her so called career is going to go down the drain...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2551297_2,00.html
    Jade Goody on Shilpa Shetty: “She makes me feel sick. She makes my skin crawl.”
    Danielle Lloyd “She’s a dog.”
    After Shetty made roast chicken for the group, Jo O’Meara said: “I don’t trust that chicken. I want to eat it but I’m scared.”
    Lloyd “You don’t know where those hands have been.”
    Jackiey Budden, Goody’s mother, to Shetty: “Do you live in a house or a shack?” She called Shetty “the Indian” and refused to pronounce her name. Lloyd to Shetty: “Do you get stubble?”
    O’Meara “Like a man.”
    Lloyd to Jade “She wants to be white.”
    Jack Tweed called Shetty a “c***”.
    Shetty: “Why do they hate me? Why am I detested?”
    “Were they bullying Shilpa last night?” asked Jermaine Jackson.
    “Yeah,” replied Ian “H” Watkins. “I’m not playing those games. I’m not going to be part of it.”

    edit: oh i see (to Man of Kent). It is pretty disgusting to see on tv. They're all hypocrites. I heard Jade was drppped from an anti-bullying campaign.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I posted this in the jade Goody thread aswell.

    This whole thing is stupid. What has Jade actually said that classifies as racist? If Shilpa was white, would there be such an uproar? No, it'd just be 'good tv'. Two people from different races can have an argument without it being racist attack. People are too sensitive.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    This whole thing is stupid. What has Jade actually said that classifies as racist? If Shilpa was white, would there be such an uproar? No, it'd just be 'good tv'. Two people from different races can have an argument without it being racist attack. People are too sensitive.

    Well Jade hasn't said anything tonight racist, it was her housemates' and mother's words that had racist undertones.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    My friend's friend has been interviewed because she went to school with Danielle. Apparently she was a bully all throughout school too.
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