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Ruth Kelly's child at 'private school'

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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But you have jumped to the conclusion that she has decided that the education service the government offers isn't good enough, and so is sending her child to private school instead.

    I don't think that is "jumping to conclusions" at all- if Kelly was satisfied with the state provision then she wouldn't be moving. It obviously isn't good enough for her and her child, so she's taking him out and paying for him privately.

    She is a member of the ruling party responsible for this.

    As I've said, my sister in law has SEN and these are not being met. This is just yet another slap in the face from the Government, this is nothing more than rubbing our faces in the dirt. And this Government has proven time and time again that this is what it thinks of us. The only surprise is that people are surprised.

    I agree that her immediate priority should be to her family, but its a shame she didn't extend the same diligence to our families, isn't it?

    As for having an "axe to grind", I don't. I'd be much happier if Kelly had done her job properly and that both our families received the SEN support they need.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote:
    I don't think that is "jumping to conclusions" at all- if Kelly was satisfied with the state provision then she wouldn't be moving. It obviously isn't good enough for her and her child, so she's taking him out and paying for him privately.
    The LEA has provisions for children that cannot be adequately educated by the state schools. It just so happens that one of Ruth Kelly's children fits the critirea. That's all we know based on what the article says. Therefore, anything else is pure speculation.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I guess it's ultimately her choice whether she wants to educate her kids privately or not; if you've got the cash, it's your prerogative and though there are some absolutely fantastic state schools out there, a private education is generally better but of course there are hundreds of exceptions.

    However, if your occupation just happens to be (or happened to be) the person in charge of state education, it doesn't take a genius to realise that her decision is a negative indictment of the state system and an admission of failure on her part.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Her actions now will be just as important. Her child should not suffer, being as innocent as all others in this position.

    If she uses the "case" to support a push for better state funded support then great, if she doesn't then she is saying "well fuck you lot, I can afford it but you're on your own".

    She has to take responsibilty for her lack of action as Sec State and, as she is paying from her own pocket, it could be argued that she is. Her failure, which this highlights, is for all those children whose parents cannot afford the level of education which she, herself, is able to provide for her child. Those ar ethe people we should focus on. Condemn her for failing them, not for supporting her child.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The question for me, and I'm not sure I have an answer, is how appropriate her position is - not the position of her child. Surely the question isn't whether her child should go to this particular school but whether she should have resigned her position or asked to be moved as a result.

    After all one of the absolute tenants of the UK's democracy (you know when you post something and can already see Seeker quoting it...) is ministerial responsibility. Ruth Kelly is responsible for everything that the Department of Education does, she is responsible for waste, for corruption, for every failed measure, for any misdeeds within the ministry. Thats an absolute prinicipal of the UK, she, and no one else, holds the final responsibility for everything within education.

    Given the aims of her government, and the situation that was developing with her child, it's got to be considered why she didn't resign. To me it seems that resigning would have been putting her child first and upholding her legal responsibility for the mistakes she (as the Department for Education) has made - although I'd feel differently if there was evidence she was improving the situation, rather than continuing to make it much worse.

    She isn't just a mother, she's the overseer, manager, and final responsiblity of the education system of the UK.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    And as far as any of us are aware, as was suggested by the article, her child was treated in exactly the same way as any other child would be, in the event that there isn't a suitable state school in the area (i.e. the child would be placed in private schooling at the cost of the LEA). Okay so "a friend of Ruth Kelly" isn't exactly the best source, but imo until we know otherwise, we shouldn't be condemning her.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Except that there not being a suitable state school in the area is her fault.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote:
    Except that there not being a suitable state school in the area is her fault.
    But there is a suitable state provision, isn't there? It's no different from the NHS paying for an operation to be done in a hospital when it doesn't have the resources. Now if you disagree with this practice, then fair enough, but I don't see how it makes her a hypocrite.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jim V wrote:
    The question for me, and I'm not sure I have an answer, is how appropriate her position is - not the position of her child. Surely the question isn't whether her child should go to this particular school but whether she should have resigned her position or asked to be moved as a result.

    After all one of the absolute tenants of the UK's democracy (you know when you post something and can already see Seeker quoting it...) is ministerial responsibility. Ruth Kelly is responsible for everything that the Department of Education does, she is responsible for waste, for corruption, for every failed measure, for any misdeeds within the ministry. Thats an absolute prinicipal of the UK, she, and no one else, holds the final responsibility for everything within education.

    Given the aims of her government, and the situation that was developing with her child, it's got to be considered why she didn't resign. To me it seems that resigning would have been putting her child first and upholding her legal responsibility for the mistakes she (as the Department for Education) has made - although I'd feel differently if there was evidence she was improving the situation, rather than continuing to make it much worse.

    She isn't just a mother, she's the overseer, manager, and final responsiblity of the education system of the UK.

    To be fair she's no longer got DfES she's Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (a much better department IMHO)
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    sophia wrote:
    We know nothing about the details though. As I said above, apparently the child in question has special educational needs, but they may be being badly bullied, or there may be any number of any other perfectly legitimate reasons why she has chosen to educate just one of her four children privately.

    There's no reason to assume it's because she doesn't want to mix with the hoi polloi. If that were the case, surely she'd educate all four of her kids privately.

    I'm not entirely sure why I'm defending her, I just think that firstly, we know none of the details or circumstances so it seems harsh to make judgments; and secondly, parents have an obligation to do the best by their children, whoever they may be.



    those special needs are dyslexia, which they think over 5% of the population has, most of whom don't do TOO badly at schools these days
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i'm surprised no-one's pointed out that her 3 other kids still actually go to state school, obviously some selective reading going on here.....everyone knows state school is a shambles for special needs children, she's obviously tried it and figured it's not good enough, just because she is/was an MP running DfES doesn't mean she can't be a good mum....does it?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aren't there any public schools for special needs like dyslexia?

    Seem's a bit unfair to favour one child over the rest - despite them having difficulties, school should cater for it.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Several people have mentioned that. :p That's what I was saying though. From the article, it seems that under advice of the LEA, and like any other child in the same situation, her child has been put into a private school better able to cope (normally at the expense of the LEA, but it seems that RK has decided to pay herself instead). Now say that the idea of using private companies to provide public services sucks if you want. But that doesn't make her a hypocrite, because it's exactly the sort of system that she has argued for and helped impliment in the past.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Labour politicians whine on about how much Labour has improved education and the NHS - but quelle surprise, Labour politicians won't send their own kids to the schools they claim to be excellent. (And you can bet plenty have plans with BUPA too).

    Ruth Kelly (fancy prep school, private girls secondary school and Queen's College, Oxford) isn't the first Labour MP to want her child to go to a private school and she won’t be the last.

    Many parents wish they could afford to follow the example of Ruth Kelly and Diane Abbott and send their kids to private schools. But they can't. And for as long as Labour refuses to support a school voucher system which could help create a level playing field private schools will remain a closed option to millions of children.

    Not that the Tories are much better. And by that I mean, David Cameron, (Eton and Brasenose, Oxford) like Labour he opposes grammar schools in the State sector. And he opposes a voucher system. Grammar schools... a slightly different but related issue.

    Indeed, I wonder why it is that all these politicians who went to private schools and Oxbridge are so vehemently opposed to grammar schools. Our top universities after all used to take a much higher proportion of state school students - before grammar schools around the country were closed and confined to just a few parts of the country. The effect of abolishing grammar schools has been to reduce social mobility and reduce the numbers of people from working and lower middle class backgrounds going to top universities. The likes of David Cameron, Ruth Kelly, Charles Clarke - all educated at expensive private schools before strolling into Oxbridge hate grammar schools. It's not surprising really, grammar schools have been shown to provide strong competition to their beloved private schools and Old Etonians like Cameron would no doubt like to see their kids and friends kids get a free run to Oxbridge.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Not being British I'm not very familiar with the the whole education system here and the arguments for and against. Without taking sides, am I right to say that the argument against grammar schools is that it creates a two-tier education system that prejudices those left in State education?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You can have state grammar schools, and in some areas you do.

    Grammar schools select according to ability, basically according to how well you do in a test when you're eleven. Most grammar schools now are private as grammar schooling has been largely abolished in the state sector, but some cities (such as Ripon in Yorkshire) still have a grammar and comprehensive system.

    Basically what happens if you're in a state grammar area is that if you're lucky enough to pass your exams at age eleven you go to the good school with the top facilities and the best teachers; if you don't then you go to the bankrupt comprehensive across the street. In Ripon the comprehensive school is at least 25% behind the grammar school in all markers- finance, teaching standards, post-16 retention, exam results, and, most importantly, the value-added exam results (which is a measure of how much a pupil improves between the time he enters the school and the time he leaves it). Obviously this is nothing short of a disgrace, but the hypocritical Labour party haven't had the guts to abolish it yet, because as the adorable Ms Kelly proves, they love nothing more than shitting on the general public from a great height.

    I consider myself an intelligent person (indeed I got the best A'Level exam results in my year at my school), yet I would probably have failed the exams at 11. Would I have got excellent A'Levels and a good degree from Durham if I'd been in a grammar area- probably not.

    Regarding the original topic, the advice wasn't actually from the LEA, if you look closely. It was "professional" advice, yes, but it looks like the shining light of Opus Dei is telling little porky pies when she implies that it was all the LEA's idea- it was hers. Cardinal Ratzinger will be so cross.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    To be honest if she no longer is education secretary I've no real issue with her decision. It's just a lack of morals in refusing to take responsibility for something she caused - but there's no lack of that in Parliament.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    Not being British I'm not very familiar with the the whole education system here and the arguments for and against. Without taking sides, am I right to say that the argument against grammar schools is that it creates a two-tier education system that prejudices those left in State education?

    Grammar schools are state schools. (As Kermit said where grammar schools have been abolished some grammar schools became private schools, although, others became state comprehensives).

    Kermit makes the argument against grammar schools. I'm not sure where the 25% figure comes from. However, the fact remain that the number of people from working class and lower middle class backgrounds attending top universities declined sharply following the abolition of grammar schools in most parts of the country. Grammar schools promote social mobility.

    The grammar school system is not perfect I accept. If grammar schools were reintroduced nationally the system would need tweaking. However, the underlying premise that different schools should cater to students with different needs is absolutely correct - and that's exactly what the grammar school system is about. The ethos behind comprehensive schools, the one size fits all approach is a proven failure. It makes sense for some schools to be more academically focused and others to focus more on vocational skills.

    Streaming within comprehensives, effectively creating grammar schools within comprehensives, is sometimes suggested as a compromise option. But it doesn't work. Schools are too small for it to work, insufficient numbers of teachers and timetabling considerations usually only allow for one or two subjects at most to be streamed by ability.

    I do not know if secondary moderns are that much worse off facility wise than their grammar school counterparts. It does not seem to be the case with the secondary moderns I am familiar with. I also know people who came to the grammar school I attended from secondary moderns for Sixth Form. If secondary moderns do get less funding, facilities, etc I think that is something that should be tweaked but the basic idea of having grammar schools which are more academically focused makes sense. In Germany there is a similar system, although, I know the secondary modern equivalent is not seen as particularly inferior to the grammar school - which is the case here, and what puts people like Kermit off I think.

    But grammar schools aren't going to come back. Privately educated politicians, their privately educated friends and all of their privately educated children don't want the tougher competition for top university places, government jobs, city jobs, etc that grammar schools would create. (To be fair a lot of Conservative MPs still do favour grammar schools but Cameron's Etonian elite are as opposed to them as Labour).

    So parents are left with the flawed comprehensive education idea, the City Academy gimmick or the option of sending their kids to a religious school. Because it's perfectly acceptable for top schools like London Oratory to select on religion but it's not okay for grammar schools to select on academic considerations. :confused:
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    There's another argument against grammar schools here in that it's all religiously segragated too. I went to an all-boys Catholic grammar run by priests. Warped my little mind so it has! :shocking:
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yerascrote wrote:
    There's another argument against grammar schools here in that it's all religiously segragated too. I went to an all-boys Catholic grammar run by priests. Warped my little mind so it has! :shocking:

    Interesting. In England it's pretty much the opposite mostly, I don't know any religious grammar schools but religious schools here are generally comprehensives.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Interesting. In England it's pretty much the opposite mostly, I don't know any religious grammar schools but religious schools here are generally comprehensives.
    My school was a comprehensive Catholic school. But it was one of the best schools in the area. Only the local private school was better in the town.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Thanks for all the answers.

    I'm surprised local authorities have been given such power as to decide whether grammar schools should stay or be abolished. You'd think that's a decision taken at national level.

    I gather there aren't many Counties left where grammar schools still exist? So presumably it's not necessarily a Labour/Conservative split issue.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    what pisses me off about this is that one of the first things the labour governemnt did when they first came into power was to take away the assisted places scheme from private schools. they did this with the promise that they would make state schools better. but they may as well have thrown a handful of sand into the sea. they've had that much positive effect.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    I gather there aren't many Counties left where grammar schools still exist? So presumably it's not necessarily a Labour/Conservative split issue.

    164 state grammar schools exist.

    But:
    Only some of these areas keep a formal grammar school system along the lines of the tripartite system. In others, they survive mainly as very highly selective schools in an otherwise comprehensive county: whereas in the tripartite system some 25% of 11 year olds had access to the Grammar schools, now it may be as low as 2% in some LEA areas.

    In national politics I know Labour have generally always been hostile towards grammar schools and the Conservatives defensive of them. (Of course loads of Labour and Conservative politicans who didn't go to private schools benefited from a grammar school education...) Locally, I'm not sure, since many still exist in Labour areas e.g. Slough. And Slough still has a full grammar school system.

    From wiki:
    It is often noted that more grammar schools were shut under Margaret Thatcher than any other Education Secretary. This is true but misleading, since this was a local process, started under Labour and allowed to continue to avoid controversy.

    So it's not as if the Conservatives were willing to fight for them.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6240165.stm

    :lol: You couldn't script it!

    The irony being, that state schools being so bad is partly her fault!


    So what's the big deal?

    She's a parent, she lives in the real world and she wants the best for her child. In an ideal world the state schools would cater for all. But this isn't the ideal world.

    She can afford the fee's and wants to give her child the best she can for their special needs, I'd be disappointed if she sacrificed her child just to keep this easy for her at work.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jim V wrote:
    To be honest if she no longer is education secretary I've no real issue with her decision. It's just a lack of morals in refusing to take responsibility for something she caused - but there's no lack of that in Parliament.

    She is still a member of the ruling party of this country, and as such continues to take full responsibility for all decisions of that party.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    Thanks for all the answers.

    I'm surprised local authorities have been given such power as to decide whether grammar schools should stay or be abolished. You'd think that's a decision taken at national level.

    I gather there aren't many Counties left where grammar schools still exist? So presumably it's not necessarily a Labour/Conservative split issue.

    They're being abolioshed in Northern Ireland, despite a consultation suggesting 90% support for keeping them.

    Northern Ireland has consistently had better GCSWresults than England, though not sure whether that's linked to Grammar schools or that we're just naturally more intelligent
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jim V wrote:
    (you know when you post something and can already see Seeker quoting it...)

    Unbelievable prescience ! :D


    (I`m hoping that was tacit acknowledgement that the usage of such abstractions is essentially meaningless).

    Meanwhile, back to the bullfight ;) ................
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I never thought I'd say this. But, for the first time ever, I applaud Ruth Kelly's judgement. Has Stargalaxy gone completely mad, I hear you ask? Not at all. Mrs Kelly has obviously seen the truth during her time at Education Secretary - that state schools are a socialist abomination and national disgrace. State schools and the comprehensive system work side by side to bring social mobility to a halt and to make sure that those born poor cannot improve their lot in life.

    New Labour has done absolutely nothing to deal with this, abolishing grammar schools, dumbing down GCSEs and A-Levels, and herding young people into university as if they were cows, all in the name of "social equality". Yes, that concept which New Labour knows nothing about. I heard an MP saying earlier this week that this is a betrayal of Labour principles. Nonsense. The truth is, Labour gave up any principles it had when it elected Tony Blair.

    Ruth Kelly's ministerial record is a pathetic failure, just like those of most New Labour cabinet ministers. As a mother, however, she has shown first-class judgement. Well done to you, Ruth. All you now need to do is resign your cushy Cabinet job and start campaigning to improve our dreadful education system.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote:
    Mrs Kelly has obviously seen the truth during her time at Education Secretary - that state schools are a socialist abomination and national disgrace. State schools and the comprehensive system work side by side to bring social mobility to a halt and to make sure that those born poor cannot improve their lot in life.

    Dude, you’re going to have to elaborate on this one for me. Do you honestly believe that state run schools, which offer free (paid for with taxes, yes) education to everyone below the age of 18, are in fact a “socialist abomination and a national disgrace”?
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