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Rail fares

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    A story comes to mind... A couple of years ago a German train-building firm sold a number of units to a British operator. The firm naturally has all kinds of testing facilities within their factory, including sections of track simulating different conditions and states of conservation to ensure their trains can cope with them.

    However it became apparent even their 'worst' test track didn't even begin to simulate the average conditions a travelling train can encounter in Britain, and they had to end up building a new section mimicking a British line so the trains could be tested properly for use here.

    Tells you all you need to know about the state of the network.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Question for Aladdin: who owns the infrastructure?

    Is that your point flying out of the window? You should go catch it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Question for Kermit: when have I suggested that the British government has done a good job of keeping the railways?

    Is that you missing (once again) the point? You're more erroneous than a train operator's timetable.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You continually imply that everything is the fault of the nasty Fat Cat companies, and that under a Government system everything would be fantastic and wonderful.

    The facts show otherwise.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No. The facts show that a state-owned railways that is properly financed, like every other such railway in the industrialised world, will always be the very best around. The facts also show that when they can get away with it, private companies will cut corners, refuse to invest and even put the lives of passengers at risk, as the families of those killed at Potters Bar and Hatfield will tell you.

    Of course it is well known that in this country the successive governments in office weren't too interested in investing in the railways as they should have, obsessed with taxes as this nation is. If it had been any different Britain would have gone for a full ATPS signalling system instead of the pisspoor watered down version we ended up with, and a dedicated high speed line would have been built so Britain would have joined the high-speed age like just about everybody else has.

    But of course, everything was made even worse when the already-overlooked railway system was dismantled and sold to speculators whose only interest in the railways is how much money it can be made out of them.

    As an end result we have the main arterial line joining North and South of Britain that after nearly 2 decades of work and many billions spent through sub-contractors and deficient signalling systems still allows the same 125mph as before, train tickets that are more expensive than flying, and annual travel cards that cost more than a new car all thanks to yearly inflaction-busting fare increases.

    The gravy train now departing from platform 6 is calling at Shareholder's Bank Account only. All passengers' wallets aboard!
  • JsTJsT Posts: 18,268 Skive's The Limit
    Aladdin wrote:
    A story comes to mind... A couple of years ago a German train-building firm sold a number of units to a British operator. The firm naturally has all kinds of testing facilities within their factory, including sections of track simulating different conditions and states of conservation to ensure their trains can cope with them.

    However it became apparent even their 'worst' test track didn't even begin to simulate the average conditions a travelling train can encounter in Britain, and they had to end up building a new section mimicking a British line so the trains could be tested properly for use here.

    Tells you all you need to know about the state of the network.
    Why do you always insist on bringing out the same flawed example every single time we have this discussion?

    If I recall the case directly it was primarily because the UK rail system has far more points than many other countries, and they are also a lot harsher in angle terms, as well the vast majority of other European countries use longer lengths of CWR (Continously welded rail) where as the British rail system operates using shorter lengths of rail, particularly in areas where expansion is a problem.

    Which is why a new test track was made. Not because the British rail system is worse, just because it is different.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    No. The facts show that a state-owned railways that is properly financed, like every other such railway in the industrialised world, will always be the very best around. The facts also show that when they can get away with it, private companies will cut corners, refuse to invest and even put the lives of passengers at risk, as the families of those killed at Potters Bar and Hatfield will tell you.

    I take it you mean state-owned like Japan and France, where the network is heavily subsidised?

    If I remember rightly, in Japan it was something like £1000 for every member of the population a year ( I can't for the life of me find a link to that information though ) though, in my research, I discovered that the Japanese network is in fact privatised.

    Anyway, the problem is people want something for nothing, they want great without paying for it. Until the British public accept that free education, NHS and public transport all actually cost serious money that has to come from somewhere, they'll all be half-arsed
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    JsT wrote:
    Why do you always insist on bringing out the same flawed example every single time we have this discussion?

    If I recall the case directly it was primarily because the UK rail system has far more points than many other countries, and they are also a lot harsher in angle terms, as well the vast majority of other European countries use longer lengths of CWR (Continously welded rail) where as the British rail system operates using shorter lengths of rail, particularly in areas where expansion is a problem.

    Which is why a new test track was made. Not because the British rail system is worse, just because it is different.
    That's not what was claimed in the newspaper article at the time. It specifically mentioned the poor quality of steel used and its tendency to buckle and/or contract excessively under certain weather conditions.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote:
    I take it you mean state-owned like Japan and France, where the network is heavily subsidised?

    If I remember rightly, in Japan it was something like £1000 for every member of the population a year ( I can't for the life of me find a link to that information though ) though, in my research, I discovered that the Japanese network is in fact privatised.

    Anyway, the problem is people want something for nothing, they want great without paying for it. Until the British public accept that free education, NHS and public transport all actually cost serious money that has to come from somewhere, they'll all be half-arsed
    Yes, I agree that is the problem.

    In Japan, in France and in other nations the railways are indeed heavely subsidised by the government. But look at the railways they have to show for it.

    The bottom line is, a railway should never be run for profit. The aim of a national railway network should not be to be profitable- if it ends up being profitable, all the better- but it should aim to offer as reliable, fast, clean, modern and effective service as possible.

    In any event the benefits to the country of having such railway system are far more than just what it says on the balance sheet. For every Pound investment in an effective railway the government ends up recouping nearly twice as much through increased business and tourism from overseas. The fact that we talk about the railway networks of France and Japan (and how many of us have been to the latter) with admiration is proof of how much of an asset a modern and efficient network can be to a nation.

    Look at our position however. How nice it would be for the word Britain to be spoken in the same sentence as the words 'France' and 'Japan' when talking about outstanding railways. Instead the British network is rather an international laughing stock- and an extremely expensive one at that- which doesn't reflect terribly good on the country.
  • JsTJsT Posts: 18,268 Skive's The Limit
    Aladdin wrote:
    That's not what was claimed in the newspaper article at the time. It specifically mentioned the poor quality of steel used and its tendency to buckle and/or contract excessively under certain weather conditions.
    Ah well. Shouldn't believe everything in papers :p If the steel buckled and contracted why don't trains fall off the rails everyday?

    The extra line was built by Siemens for the introduction of the Class 442 with paticular reference to the large number of tight points and short rail sections on the Southern region, paticularly around Waterloo and Clapham. By all accounts it proved unneccessary as every other class of train Siemens has built since for the UK market (and there has been quite a lot) have been used on the standard test track at Wildenrath.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fair enough, perhaps I shouldn't believe everything I read on the papers ;)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    Fair enough, perhaps I shouldn't believe everything I read on the papers ;)
    Indeed not.

    And I hate to criticise Private Eye, but the Dr B Ching article is usually written by some spiteful and clueless clot, and the article is usually littered with errors, half-truths and omissions, such as the ones above.
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