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Heresy hostage freed from captivity

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
It seems even the "Austrian justice system" is full of goodwill to all men at this time of year.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6196073.stm

Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ???
    This isn't worth discussing, surely.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    About time too.

    Cunt that he is, he should never have been put in prison.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote:
    About time too.

    Cunt that he is, he should never have been put in prison.

    In Germany and Austria Holocaust denial is illegal. He was in a foreign country and he broke the law of that country. In Austria Holocaust denial carries a penalty of jail. Why shouldn't he have been jailed?

    I wouldn't advocate jailing Holocaust deniers here; I think people like Irving should be allowed to drift into obscurity and ignored as had pretty much been the case until the Austrians jailed him. But I don't think we are in any position to tell the Austrians what to do with people like Irving.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    In Germany and Austria Holocaust denial is illegal. He was in a foreign country and he broke the law of that country. In Austria Holocaust denial carries a penalty of jail. Why shouldn't he have been jailed?

    I wouldn't advocate jailing Holocaust deniers here; I think people like Irving should be allowed to drift into obscurity and ignored as had pretty much been the case until the Austrians jailed him. But I don't think we are in any position to tell the Austrians what to do with people like Irving.

    I guess Kermit is saying that Irving should be entitled to free speech? Nonetheless, I agree with you that if he knew the repercussions that faced him, he shouldn't have gone. When in Rome and all that ...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    In Germany and Austria Holocaust denial is illegal. He was in a foreign country and he broke the law of that country. In Austria Holocaust denial carries a penalty of jail. Why shouldn't he have been jailed?

    I should have been more clear.

    The law is an ass, and should never have been able to jail him.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Notwithstanding personal opinions about "the Law" ( I happen to like Aladdin`s recent "Pass me that law book please, I've run out of toilet paper"), I believe the law that he was alleged to have broken was from 1992 and imposed retrospectively.

    If that is correct, I get the impression that it was somewhat personal.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    J wrote:
    Incidently I'm not denying that a vast number of jews were murdered, possibly maybe just that it might not have been the holocaust.

    You really are a fruitcake. :rolleyes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    In Germany and Austria Holocaust denial is illegal. He was in a foreign country and he broke the law of that country. In Austria Holocaust denial carries a penalty of jail. Why shouldn't he have been jailed?
    So you think that human rights are relative to the country? What if tomorrow an aspect of free speech (for example, speaking out against the church) was implemented here?

    Irving was only exercising his freedom of speech, which is one of the pilars that the global north is supposedly built upon.
    I wouldn't advocate jailing Holocaust deniers here; I think people like Irving should be allowed to drift into obscurity and ignored as had pretty much been the case until the Austrians jailed him. But I don't think we are in any position to tell the Austrians what to do with people like Irving.
    I agree that people such as Irving should be ignored, the same with Griffin... But I don't think that he should have been jailed.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So you think that human rights are relative to the country? What if tomorrow an aspect of free speech (for example, speaking out against the church) was implemented here?

    We have free speech? The treatment of Nick Griffin would suggest measures against free speech are already firmly in place here...Speaking out against religion? It's already happened.
    Irving was only exercising his freedom of speech

    Holocaust denial is illegal in Austria (as it also is in Germany). Irving was a foreign citizen, he visited a foreign country and broke the laws of that country. If he had said what he did (as he has done many times) in Britain I would defend his right to say it - and there being no law against Holocaust denial here, he would not have been arrested.

    Personally I think it's acceptable to drink alcohol in public. However, I wouldn't have much sympathy for a Brit who goes to Saudi Arabia and finds themselves in jail after walking around Medina with a can of Carling.

    I would oppose outlawing Holocaust denial in this country - but, I can understand the reasons why it is illegal in Germany and Austria and why (most Germans I've spoken to at least) oppose legalising it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    We have free speech? The treatment of Nick Griffin would suggest measures against free speech are already firmly in place here...Speaking out against religion? It's already happened.
    That is about incitement of hatred, I meant more along the lines of the writer of the Davinci Code being imprisoned.


    Holocaust denial is illegal in Austria (as it also is in Germany). Irving was a foreign citizen, he visited a foreign country and broke the laws of that country. If he had said what he did (as he has done many times) in Britain I would defend his right to say it - and there being no law against Holocaust denial here, he would not have been arrested.

    Personally I think it's acceptable to drink alcohol in public. However, I wouldn't have much sympathy for a Brit who goes to Saudi Arabia and finds themselves in jail after walking around Medina with a can of Carling.

    I would oppose outlawing Holocaust denial in this country - but, I can understand the reasons why it is illegal in Germany and Austria and why (most Germans I've spoken to at least) oppose legalising it.
    I get what you mean and it wouldn't surprise me if he did it for attention, deliberately got arrested, but that doesn't make the law right.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    That is about incitement of hatred, I meant more along the lines of the writer of the Davinci Code being imprisoned.

    The treatment of Nick Griffin was still an attack on free speech.

    The cartoons controversy meanwhile...Ministers begged newspapers not to publish the cartoons, the government encouraged self-censorship. And nobody in government publicly defended the right to freedom of expression of the artists, instead all we heard was Jack Straw saying how insensitive and offensive the cartoons were.
    I get what you mean and it wouldn't surprise me if he did it for attention, deliberately got arrested, but that doesn't make the law right.

    I agree...I think the law wouldn't be right in Britain. However, I respect the judgement of the many Germans and Austrians who seem to think Holocaust denial laws are right in their country.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The treatment of Nick Griffin was still an attack on free speech.
    Of course we don't have complete free speech, that wasn't the point I was making. But there is a difference between inciting hatred and violence and denying an event which is largely believed to have happened.

    Why should people like Irving be treated as criminals? They are expressing an opinion, saying something didn't happen at all. If you went around say "all black people are muggers, kick them out" it is by far different to saying "I don't believe the Apatheid ever existed in South Africa".
    The cartoons controversy meanwhile...Ministers begged newspapers not to publish the cartoons, the government encouraged self-censorship. And nobody in government publicly defended the right to freedom of expression of the artists, instead all we heard was Jack Straw saying how insensitive and offensive the cartoons were.
    But surely this is a different arguement again?

    I wonder if the person who drew the Muhammed cartoon knew that depicting him is hugely offensive. If you satirise anything you will offend them, but this is neither a case of incitement to racism or of holocaust denial.
    I agree...I think the law wouldn't be right in Britain. However, I respect the judgement of the many Germans and Austrians who seem to think Holocaust denial laws are right in their country.
    Of course... But then in some countries people have been hung for being gay, or arrested and tortured for peaceful protesting. Surely the people think that such laws are right for their own country.

    I just don't understand why you think one law is Ok for Austria, but not for the UK. Surely if it's up to the nationals then that is like saying that in some countries it's Ok to beat a woman because the people who live there think that.
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