Home Politics and Debate

For my own research purposes

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
So, people here probably have guessed I am involved in environmental work and care a fair bit about it, but I was wondering if people could help me...

Basically, it is know that the majority of the environmental movement tends to be white middle class people (they are the biggest polluters too) and I am on a mission to find out why. I'll be sitting on the university Faith Council next year for a few sessions to answer questions, but I was wondering if people here could answer me some questions (hope this is allowed)...


What social class do you consider yourself to be?

What ethnic group?

Religion?

Have you been involved in any environmental movements?

Why?

Do you find the mainstream environmental movements universally inclusive or exclusive?

Why?

What do you believe a 'green lifestyle' entails?

Do you see living a 'green lifestyle' as important?

In what way do you believe environmentalism could best be taught to people of working class backgrounds (if at all)?

In what way do you believe environmentalism could best be taught to people from different ethnic backgrounds or religious groups (if at all)?


I understand that some people believe that environmentalism is sanctimonious, or patronising. That's their opinion and this isn't out to offend anybody. I understand that people of all sorts of backgrounds are interested in the movement, but I would like to know further why it tends to be mostly middle class white people who are talking about it and being proactive when we live in such a multicultural society.

This isn't a criticism on anybody, just research (maybe I am ignorant and there is an afro-carrebean environmental movement too).

Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What social class do you consider yourself to be?
    Technically on the lower end of middle class, however I am a student.

    What ethnic group?
    Caucasian

    Religion?
    A mixture of Pantheism and Buddhism

    Have you been involved in any environmental movements?
    Yes

    Why?
    Because it is something I believe to be important.

    Do you find the mainstream environmental movements universally inclusive or exclusive?
    I believe it excludes certain groups... But then I don't even know which questionsto start asking.

    Why?
    I understand that people in the UK live very different lifestyles and that some people don't believe they have the money to live an environmentally friendly lifestyle. Maybe it isn't important in somebody's religion, or some groups are more fatalist...

    What do you believe a 'green lifestyle' entails?
    I'mnot going to write anything here

    Do you see living a 'green lifestyle' as important?
    Very

    In what way do you believe environmentalism could best be taught to people of working class backgrounds (if at all)?
    See I don't know. I talked to a friend who said that people from low income backgrounds often care more about feeding their children than where their food comes from. Supermarkets are laiden with cheap eats for example and if you don't have the money, why spend it?

    In what way do you believe environmentalism could best be taught to people from different ethnic backgrounds or religious groups (if at all)?
    Again I don't know (hence I'll be conversing with people from groups). Apparently Islam has an environmental slant to it. Perhaps each culture and religion needs to be taught from people who are products of that, not from white university educated people.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Only to happy to help :)

    What social class do you consider yourself to be?

    Lower-middle class.

    What ethnic group?

    Caucasian

    Religion?

    Athiest.

    Have you been involved in any environmental movements?

    Yes.

    Why?

    A single damaging development that would have been detrimental to the local community.

    Do you find the mainstream environmental movements universally inclusive or exclusive?

    Exclusive.

    Why?

    The "average-joe" in the street, who needs to be targeted by such campaigns either cannot understand some of the principles behind environmentalism or doesn't want to for whatever reason.

    What do you believe a 'green lifestyle' entails?

    Living in a sustainable way.

    Do you see living a 'green lifestyle' as important?

    Increasingly so yes.

    In what way do you believe environmentalism could best be taught to people of working class backgrounds (if at all)?

    Start young and start at school, use laymans terms if you have too, even more public information via television and internet. Use slogans if you must. Make people realise that "every little helps".

    In what way do you believe environmentalism could best be taught to people from different ethnic backgrounds or religious groups (if at all)?

    The same, except information should be presented as much a global problem that a regional/local one.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What social class do you consider yourself to be?

    Middle class

    What ethnic group?

    Northern Irish

    Religion?

    Culturally Prestbyterian, but at times veer towards agnosticism

    Have you been involved in any environmental movements?

    it depends what you mean by involved. Professionally as a civil servant I was involved in implementing the policies to enable the UK to meet her Kyoto committments.

    I was also in the young ornithologists when I was about ten.

    Why?

    Money.

    I liked birds.

    Do you find the mainstream environmental movements universally inclusive or exclusive?

    Extremely exclusive

    Why?

    Lecture hat on.

    In the 1980's mainstream scientific thought began to worry about the effects of climate change. The Green Party and Greenpeace started to capitalise on it. In local elections in the late 1980s the Green started to do well. And then they fucked it up.

    What they did was instead of saying that environmentalism is apolitical and you can do it if you're right or left they began to think that all those people who supported environmentalism were in fact closet marxists. I can remember seeing a Green Party manifesto which wouldn't have looked out of place as SWP manifesto. I mean, WTF, does defensive weaponary mean. And the fact that CND links had helped ensure Labour hadn't got into power anytime during the 80's should have been a clue that getting rid of Trident wasn't a vote winner (and had nothing to do with climate change).

    In fact if you're serious about reducing carbon you need to be looking at realistic alternatives - and with the state of today's technology that means nuclear.

    The result was that many people on the right began to see the environmentalists as a cover for socialism. Which was kind of ironic given that the first serious attempt to deal with overuse of energy came under Thatcher (Energy Efficiency Best Practice Programme), the best Ministerial champion of the environment (at least until recent times) was John Gummer and the sudden explosion of interest in the environment is due to David Cameron.
    What do you believe a 'green lifestyle' entails?

    Basically doing your best to live a normal life, but realising that those energy efficient light bulbs costs a bit more (but save you energy), that you can turn down the heating a bit (which saves you energy), recylcing paper (which is cheaper in the long run) etc


    Do you see living a 'green lifestyle' as important?

    It is to me

    In what way do you believe environmentalism could best be taught to people of working class backgrounds (if at all)?

    That being environmental can save you money. If you turn your heating down a bit you'll hardly notice, at least until it comes to cheaper bills.
    In what way do you believe environmentalism could best be taught to people from different ethnic backgrounds or religious groups (if at all)?

    Same way as it to everyone else.

    I understand that some people believe that environmentalism is sanctimonious, or patronising. That's their opinion and this isn't out to offend anybody. I understand that people of all sorts of backgrounds are interested in the movement, but I would like to know further why it tends to be mostly middle class white people who are talking about it and being proactive when we live in such a multicultural society.

    This isn't a criticism on anybody, just research (maybe I am ignorant and there is an afro-carrebean environmental movement too).


    I'm not sure its often middle-class, more chattering classes, which is a different thing. See above about politicalisation for an explanation.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What social class do you consider yourself to be? I'm not really sure. I work and I'm not well off, so working class I guess?!

    What ethnic group? White

    Religion? None

    Have you been involved in any environmental movements? Yes. I am an environment rep at work and an official HMRC Local Environment Officer.

    Why? I believe a lot of things that can help reduce environmental damage are easy to acheive but people are just too lazy and have other, more important (to them!) things to worry about. I guess I got involved to raise awareness of how easy things like recycling are.

    Do you find the mainstream environmental movements universally inclusive or exclusive? A bit of both really.

    Why? There is nothing stopping people getting involved with environnmental organisations. Joining Friends of the Earth costs only £2 per month. However, these organisations don't really promote themselves to the masses, which could be seen as exclusive.

    What do you believe a 'green lifestyle' entails? Recycling what you can. Reducing the amount of energy you use. Reducing the amount of waste that you produce. These are some basic things that we can all do. Of course other people would go further and say only eating organic and free range produce, not using toiletries that are damaging, not driving etc are all ways of having a green lifestyle.

    Do you see living a 'green lifestyle' as important? Yes. One person cannot make a difference, but as a nation we can. It is free to recycle. It is free to reduce your energy and carbon emissions. It is free to reuse carrier bags!

    In what way do you believe environmentalism could best be taught to people of working class backgrounds (if at all)? Start from a young age, so at school.

    In what way do you believe environmentalism could best be taught to people from different ethnic backgrounds or religious groups (if at all)? Again, at school.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What social class do you consider yourself to be?
    - Middle

    What ethnic group?
    -white

    Religion?
    -agnostic

    Have you been involved in any environmental movements?
    -I vote green party, other than that, no.

    Why?
    -If I were to participate it would be through dirrect action and those are hard groups to locate and participate in.

    Do you find the mainstream environmental movements universally inclusive or exclusive?
    -pretty inclusive although they need an image change.

    Why?
    -The voting public (especialy in the states) don't respond well to the pesimistic, quazi-hippie attitude of most environmental groups

    What do you believe a 'green lifestyle' entails?
    -recycling, using alternative fuels, finding reusing resources, having as little of an impact on the environment as possible.

    Do you see living a 'green lifestyle' as important?
    -yes

    In what way do you believe environmentalism could best be taught to people of working class backgrounds (if at all)?
    -not sure

    In what way do you believe environmentalism could best be taught to people from different ethnic backgrounds or religious groups (if at all)?
    -not sure
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What social class do you consider yourself to be?

    Middle.

    What ethnic group?

    White.

    Religion?
    None practicing

    Have you been involved in any environmental movements?

    No.

    Why?

    You don't need to give money to Greenpeace to be environmentally friendly.

    Do you find the mainstream environmental movements universally inclusive or exclusive?

    Quite exclusive.

    Why?

    As has been said the green movements are not apolitical. Statists – with support from most of the mainstream environmental movements are also exploiting the recent interest in 'green' lifestyles and using it as a means to further interfere in people's lives. They want to put a black box in every car that records every single car journey. They fine people for not sorting out their recycling correctly, they want to make recycling compulsory. They want to make flying a luxury solely for the rich. Some of them even want to ban patio heaters! (Although, I suspect that one might be more about making life even more uncomfortable for smokers once the ban kicks in).

    If the green movements focused on convincing people through reason and urging voluntary change instead of lobbying governments to force people into compliance I might not feel so hostile towards them. Although, perhaps the most repressive measure to 'help' the environment, black boxes in cars, comes from David Miliband who eager to one day lead the Labour Party no doubt is determined to do what New Labour does best - interfere in people's lives. So to be fair perhaps the green movements have just got sucked in, either way they should distance themselves from people with such an agenda.

    What do you believe a 'green lifestyle' entails?

    Sustainability I guess. Minimising waste too. Maybe fixing stuff instead of throwing it away and buying a new one. Using public transport alternatives where viable on congested car routes. Not having loads of children. Protecting green spaces.

    Do you see living a 'green lifestyle' as important?

    Yes.

    In what way do you believe environmentalism could best be taught to people of working class backgrounds (if at all)?

    Schools should not preach about the environment and dictate to children that they must recycle, they must tell daddy off for owning a 4x4 and so on. They should teach an awareness of the environment and this covers more than recycling and taking the bus to school - there's also endangered species and protecting green areas for instance. But, the actual facts shouldn't be skewed to fit the green agenda; people have to be taught the facts and allowed to make up their own mind. As for how it should be taught to people of religious groups/different ethnic backgrounds/etc I guess people who that applies to would be better qualified to answer - but I can't see many reasons for it to be for the most part taught the same.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What social class do you consider yourself to be?

    Working Class

    What ethnic group?

    Irish White

    Religion?

    Catholic/agnostic

    Have you been involved in any environmental movements?

    Nope

    Why?

    No movements as such in my area

    Do you find the mainstream environmental movements universally inclusive or exclusive?

    Exclusive.

    Why?

    Stuck up cunts on their high horses basically.

    What do you believe a 'green lifestyle' entails?

    Recycling, walking to work and shit like that.

    Do you see living a 'green lifestyle' as important?

    In the long run, yes.

    In what way do you believe environmentalism could best be taught to people of working class backgrounds (if at all)?

    Fuck all tbh.

    In what way do you believe environmentalism could best be taught to people from different ethnic backgrounds or religious groups (if at all)

    What a load of bollocks.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Why do people see environmentalists as being on their high horse, or stuck up, or preaching at people? Everyone who has replied as stated they thing a green and sustainable lifestyle is important, and yet those who actively advocate it are slated. It puzzles me.

    I could understand frustration at being told 'buy this car' or 'only eat fair trade and organic' because those things cost money, but other things, like reducing waste and increasing recycling do not. They may take 30 seconds extra to do but they're free so aren't really economically exclusive.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What social class do you consider yourself to be? Born working class, middle class by proffession.

    What ethnic group? Caucasion.

    Religion? Church of Unity (Christian).

    Have you been involved in any environmental movements? I have given money to environmental causes, i recycle and vote for the green party (whenever local representation allows me to).

    Why? Because i believe the world is changing and becoming a more hostile environment and if we don't take action soon our descendents will suffer.

    Do you find the mainstream environmental movements universally inclusive or exclusive?

    At times it seems that caring about the environment means you are labelled as a "hippy" or a "tree hugger", but i am just a normal girl who cares about the planet. To me anyone can join in and muck out if yopu like. You don't need money, power or even to be a hippy to join in, in your own way. Whether that be to donate to causes or to volunteer to clean up beaches, for example.
    Why?

    What do you believe a 'green lifestyle' entails?
    Finding alternative transport (or using very low polluting cars), recycling, campaigning for change at a government and world level, finding energy efficient means to live, for example energy saving light bulbs and solar pannels, or simple things like turning off the TV by the mains. Consuming local organic foods, that have less "food miles" and thus less pollution.

    Do you see living a 'green lifestyle' as important?
    It is important to the planet yes. I believe that even if we do keep some of our polluting luxuries we should think of ways that we could balance out the damage to the environment. No one is perfect though.

    In what way do you believe environmentalism could best be taught to people of working class backgrounds (if at all)?

    Surely that question is presuming that only middle class people care about the world? Why can't environmentalism be taught to all social classes in the same way?

    In what way do you believe environmentalism could best be taught to people from different ethnic backgrounds or religious groups (if at all)?
    So anyone who is from a black or Asian background wouldn't care about the environment??

    I can't speak for any other race, but i see the environment as everybodies concern and i'd be very suprised if it really were a white middle class domain.
    Personally i don't trust polls, who said that poverty stricken black and Asian people don't care? Which poll was sent out? Did everyone get one? I don't remember seing one as a so called"middle class white person".
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    satehen wrote:
    So anyone who is from a black or Asian background wouldn't care about the environment??

    I can't speak for any other race, but i see the environment as everybodies concern and i'd be very suprised if it really were a white middle class domain.
    Personally i don't trust polls, who said that poverty stricken black and Asian people don't care? Which poll was sent out? Did everyone get one? I don't remember seing one as a so called"middle class white person".
    Well got the information from a member of the Sustainability team that it was mostly white middle class people involved in environmentalism. That's not to say that somebody doesn't care because they're black, or working class... It is a social trend (will ask her for her source).

    However, I've been actively going to meetings and been involved in activism myself, they seem to be almost entirely white. It's not a racist statement, it's what one sees... Perhaps there are Islamic environmental groups too... But those most proactive tend to be white middle class.

    I think a lot of it has to do with the marketing of environmentalism... People assume that it's an expensive lifestyle (granted, locally produced organic food can be pricey), or the idea of getting hybrid cars, ethical tourism ect ect

    Too many companies tend to be milking the 'ethical' label and making them pricy imo
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I just think that people will always put their own welfare and that of their family before considering anything on a bigger scale. It wouldn't surprise me to find that it is generally young people who are most active in such issues, since they don't have kids or mortgages to consider. I think middle class people generally will have less to worry about in their personal (particularly financial) life. It's easy to care what type of eggs you're buying if you're not worrying how you're going to afford new school uniforms for your kids, or how you're going to afford your next credit card installment. Everyone puts their personal life first, but I think people who are comfortable can afford to consider other issues a bit more. But ask them to choose between a car that is environmentally friendly, and one that is safe for their children, and they'll pick the safe one every time (hence all the 4x4s on the roads).

    I also think that certain policies unintentionally punish people on lower incomes. When they start taxing people flat rates to try and get them to buy different types of cars, for example. That's great for middle class people, but when you can't afford a car that's under ten years old, it's not much cop. But I think where it's viable, working class people are just as likely, maybe even more likely to be environmentally friendly than middle class people. I doubt they are as likely to make the conscious effort for the cause. But in my experience, working class people are far more likely to use public transport, ride a bike, or walk to work, far more likely to worry about leaving a light on or a tap running, careful to only do the washing when they have a full load, or only use a dishwasher on special occasions. It's more about saving money than being environmental though, so you don't hear them going on about it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But in my experience, working class people are far more likely to use public transport, ride a bike, or walk to work, far more likely to worry about leaving a light on or a tap running, careful to only do the washing when they have a full load, or only use a dishwasher on special occasions. It's more about saving money than being environmental though, so you don't hear them going on about it.

    I agree with this statement. I do believe that these are the same people who are likely to throw all their paper and cans in the normal bin too, because it doesn't benefit them directly sorting out their rubbish.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yep, it is actually the middle class who are polluting the most with their big cars.
    It wouldn't surprise me to find that it is generally young people who are most active in such issues, since they don't have kids or mortgages to consider.
    Well apart from People and Planet (which is student led) it tends to be people over 30, at least in my experience. Of all the people in my university, I can count on one hand those who are passionate about the environment.
    Everyone puts their personal life first, but I think people who are comfortable can afford to consider other issues a bit more. But ask them to choose between a car that is environmentally friendly, and one that is safe for their children, and they'll pick the safe one every time (hence all the 4x4s on the roads).
    I disagree on the safety aspect, I think that the 4X4s are more to do with status... But that's just my opinion. You don't need a 4X4 in a city.
    I also think that certain policies unintentionally punish people on lower incomes. When they start taxing people flat rates to try and get them to buy different types of cars, for example.
    Yes, but a lot of things punish the working classes. It sucks, but it's true. Whatever lifestyle we live, there will always be people who cannot afford the same lifestyle as those with more money.

    hey want to make flying a luxury solely for the rich. Some of them even want to ban patio heaters! (Although, I suspect that one might be more about making life even more uncomfortable for smokers once the ban kicks in).
    All I can say here is 'boo hoo' (in a sarcastic sense). I don't understand the flying debate, I don't understand why people seem to believe that they are 'entitled' to go to Ibiza every year. Yes, it helps the economies in many countries however, that is a better arguement than the 'only rich people being able to fly'.

    If we want to talk about the wealthy getting treated better than those less affluent, maybe we should be looking at how so many dentists are becoming private, not a piss up beside a swimming pool.

    As for patio heaters, again we don't need them. If you're so desperate to smoke, wrap up warm... No problem.
    Stuck up cunts on their high horses basically.
    Why?

    Maybe that same label should be applied to people like Martin Luther King.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Maybe that same label should be applied to people like Martin Luther King.

    Oh I wish I had access to that diagram which shows you missing the point by a mile.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yerascrote wrote:
    Oh I wish I had access to that diagram which shows you missing the point by a mile.
    Me too.

    I have no idea what you're on about.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I disagree on the safety aspect, I think that the 4X4s are more to do with status... But that's just my opinion. You don't need a 4X4 in a city.
    In part, but they do have the impression of being very safe cars, even though in reality they are no safer than a large family car. But all you have to look at is the manufacturers response to customer demand. In the past ten years, engine technology has made them far more economical, yet in that time, the average mpg for new cars has remained fairly constant, because the cars are now a much bigger load to carry around due to all of the extra luxuries and safety features that their customers want.
    Yes, but a lot of things punish the working classes. It sucks, but it's true. Whatever lifestyle we live, there will always be people who cannot afford the same lifestyle as those with more money.
    There's a difference between things simply being too expensive for someone, and actively campaigning for something that will only make it too expensive for those on a low income. I'd like to see middle class people campaigning for a tax that would add £10k onto the cost of their new Mercedes 4x4 to "convince" them to buy something more economical. There's only one way to make sure that fewer highly polluting vehicles are on the road in the long term, and that's to make sure that people don't buy them in the first place. Those on lower income that need a car are going to buy whatever is available second hand. And yet I've never heard anything similar to this suggestion come out of any environmentalist groups. But I suppose if they are predominantly the exclusive, middle-class group you suggest they might be, I'm not surprised in the slightest.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    BumbleBee wrote:
    I agree with this statement. I do believe that these are the same people who are likely to throw all their paper and cans in the normal bin too, because it doesn't benefit them directly sorting out their rubbish.
    I live in a working class area, and whenever the paper and tin/glass recycling collection comes, pretty much every house in the street has their recycling bins out with the regular bins. Give people the means and most people will do it. But no, the first idea they always come up with is to tax people into changing their behaviour, before they've even implimented a proper collection in most areas. And it always comes from people who don't genuinely worry about having to pay a bit extra tax or getting a fine. Easy to suggest a £50 fine when you're on £60k a year. Put the same person on £10k a year, and see them shit themselves at the prospect of losing more than a full days pay.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What social class do you consider yourself to be?

    Upper Middle

    What ethnic group?

    White British

    Religion?

    Not sure. Something like Christian maybe. But not. Undecided.

    Have you been involved in any environmental movements?

    Not as such, except trying to get colleges involved with recycling.

    Why?

    Recycling - it's important to get people recycling as just like brushing your teeth it's a habit that people need to get into it. As for not joining other movements, it's because I'm too lazy and don't know anything about them.

    Do you find the mainstream environmental movements universally inclusive or exclusive?


    I can't say because I don't know anything about any.

    Why?


    Because the information isn't normally there, it's either a fanatic in town who tries to talk to you when you're walking, or some kid at school who is anti-government saying how the environment is dead cos of our nukes etc.

    What do you believe a 'green lifestyle' entails?


    Looking after the environment, and trying to live in harmony with it.

    Do you see living a 'green lifestyle' as important?


    Hell yes. I think living 'in harmony' with the enviroment (ok, so its a corny turn of phrase but I find it difficult to express what I mean; give back what we take kind of thing) is what being human is about. We were born from this world, from the trees and the animals, and just like we respect our parents for bringing us into the world and nurturing us, we should respect the earth.

    In what way do you believe environmentalism could best be taught to people of working class backgrounds (if at all)?


    Parents and teachers trying to spread the message when people are young. Through school. I tried hard to get my school to promote recycling more (hell I was even videod for an assembly on recycling) and can you believe this: right next to a vending machine for cans / cafe there was no recycling bin for aluminium cans. I'm undoubtedly anal about this, but it felt like a crime everytime I threw one into the rubbish bin. :(

    In what way do you believe environmentalism could best be taught to people from different ethnic backgrounds or religious groups (if at all)?


    Same as above, the message needs to start when people are young, because when they hit 20 or so they are unlikely to change their mind. When people's minds are developing, that is when they work out their 'general' ideals of the world.



    I understand that some people believe that environmentalism is sanctimonious, or patronising. That's their opinion and this isn't out to offend anybody. I understand that people of all sorts of backgrounds are interested in the movement, but I would like to know further why it tends to be mostly middle class white people who are talking about it and being proactive when we live in such a multicultural society.

    This isn't a criticism on anybody, just research (maybe I am ignorant and there is an afro-carrebean environmental movement too).


    --

    I would like to add that (purely conjecture) perhaps it's because of the generally, better standards of education given to white middle class people?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    As for patio heaters, again we don't need them. If you're so desperate to smoke, wrap up warm... No problem.

    If smokers are rudely banned from lighting up in pubs and restaurants it's perfectly reasonable that they are accommodated comfortably outside - and in winter that means a terrace enclosed by a ring of patio heaters. If the anti-smoking do-gooders don't like it they can let smokers back inside.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If smokers are rudely banned from lighting up in pubs and restaurants it's perfectly reasonable that they are accommodated comfortably outside - and in winter that means a terrace enclosed by a ring of patio heaters. If the anti-smoking do-gooders don't like it they can let smokers back inside.
    The anti-smoking debate and the patio heater debate are surely two different entities?

    Personally I don't see how people feel they have a right to smoke inside, then complain about 'do-gooders' when a law is passed saying they have to go outside. I mean surely you don't need to smoke anyway and aren't people entitled to a right not to breath in the fumes a smoker makes?

    And it won't kill anyone to wrap up warm, can't see why it's an issue.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What social class do you consider yourself to be?

    I don't consider myself to be in any class.

    What ethnic group?

    white

    Religion?

    atheist

    Have you been involved in any environmental movements?

    No.

    Why?

    Individuals are smart, movements are chaotic. I feel I can contribute more by living a more environment friendly life myself and try to influence others that way than join a movement which if what you and some others are saying is mostly middle class god complex 4x4 driving stuck up people thinking that everyone should be forced to be more environmental friendly.

    Do you find the mainstream environmental movements universally inclusive or exclusive?

    Absolutely exclusive.

    Why?

    Because most of them are designed around making people feel guilty about their lifestyles, totally wrong approach.

    What do you believe a 'green lifestyle' entails?

    Green lifestyle does not exist, none of us, whether in a movement or not, live a green lifestyle. There are a lot of definitions of a green lifestyle out there, but neither of them mean anything if you don't live a healthy lifestyle first.

    Do you see living a 'green lifestyle' as important?

    In the long run, yes, but it can't always be achieved.

    In what way do you believe environmentalism could best be taught to people of working class backgrounds (if at all)?

    Environmentalism, if you have to call it like that, needs to be taught to the CEO's, Board members, company directors.... that's where the education needs to start. "Environmentalists" are going about this the wrong way.

    In what way do you believe environmentalism could best be taught to people from different ethnic backgrounds or religious groups (if at all)?

    This is a secular question by nature. Everyone should be treated the same when it comes to education, because everyone needs to know the same thing.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The anti-smoking debate and the patio heater debate are surely two different entities?

    Not if the smoking ban extends to making life uncomfortable for smokers going outside which is exactly what a patio heater ban would do.
    Personally I don't see how people feel they have a right to smoke inside

    I don't believe smokers have a 'right' to smoke inside. I do believe a landlord has a right to allow (or ban) smoking in their own pub.
    I mean surely you don't need to smoke anyway

    You don't need to drink. You don't need to eat chocolate. What's your point?
    and aren't people entitled to a right not to breath in the fumes a smoker makes?

    If that's the case surely I'm entitled to not breath in car fumes? I don't drive a car...
    And it won't kill anyone to wrap up warm, can't see why it's an issue.

    So? Anyway - anyone who seriously proposes a patio heater ban isn't going to be taken seriously, we're talking about a few sad LibDem and Green whackos.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    And it won't kill anyone to wrap up warm, can't see why it's an issue.
    How about proposing the same policy indoors then? After all, it won't kill anyone to wrap up warmer, so why not ban radiators indoors as well?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    How about proposing the same policy indoors then? After all, it won't kill anyone to wrap up warmer, so why not ban radiators indoors as well?
    Because you're indoors for longer than than you're outdoors for a quick fag.
Sign In or Register to comment.