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Slight change of subject...

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
Ok, I don't want to continue the goth war, but I'm confused about a couple of things. I guess they are questions for MaLkAv, but I want to opinions from other people too .

Disclaimer: Please don't get offended. I'm asking these questions because I'm having trouble understanding certain thngs, not because I want to attack, make fun of, or insult anyone.

Here's what I don't understand. MaLkAv said that he was being persecuted for the goth lifestyle he chose to lead, yet he's not a hard-core goth, and only dresses that way once in a while.So why would anyone choose to dress in a way that that makes people laugh at them and attack them? I mean, I feel comfortable walking around naked, but I don't go to work that way because I don't want the consequences. Yes, we should be able to wear what we want and not be harrassed, but let's face it, the world doesn't work that way. If one makes the choice to wear a pirate shirt, aren't they also choosing to be laughed at? I don't think it's anything like attacked for your skin colour. One doesn't decide to be black or white. I shouldn't face discrimination because of my depression. It was a disease I was born with and I had no choice in the matter. However, I'm not ignorant...I know that I will be treated badly by some people because of it. That's why I choose not to tell certain people about it.

MaLkAv mentioned that WWII was largely fought to ensure freedom from persecution based on our race, religion, beliefs, etc. True, but this does not mean that anyone should be free to do what they want without consequences. Want to convert from Christianity to Buddhism? Go ahead, but your religious parents might be upset. Want to rob a bank? Go ahead, but you might go to jail? Want to wear a pirate shirt? Go ahead, but...you get the point.

I guess the question I have boils down to this: MaLkAv, do you feel any sense of responsibilty for the way people treat you? I understand that in an ideal world, you shouldn't have a problem. But the fact is that life ain't fair and you can't control other people's beliefs, so why make decisions that end up hurting you?

Anyone have any thoughts on the above? Hope I made sense.


Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Burnout_Girl:
    MaLkAv said that he was being persecuted for the goth lifestyle he chose to lead, yet he's not a hard-core goth, and only dresses that way once in a while. So why would anyone choose to dress in a way that that makes people laugh at them and attack them?

    I mean, I feel comfortable walking around naked, but I don't go to work that way because I don't want the consequences. Yes, we should be able to wear what we want and not be harrassed, but let's face it, the world doesn't work that way. If one makes the choice to wear a pirate shirt, aren't they also choosing to be laughed at? I don't think it's anything like attacked for your skin colour. One doesn't decide to be black or white. I shouldn't face discrimination because of my depression. It was a disease I was born with and I had no choice in the matter. However, I'm not ignorant...I know that I will be treated badly by some people because of it. That's why I choose not to tell certain people about it.

    Your argument here seems to be if you can hide your difference you should.

    illiterate people should pretend they can read.
    Canadians should all speak American.
    Lesbians should sleep with men.
    Gay portillitions should get married before moving to the cabinet
    fat people shouldn't wear swim suits in public
    Black people should not be seen in the better parts of town

    MaLkAv mentioned that WWII was largely fought to ensure freedom from persecution based on our race, religion, beliefs, etc. True, but this does not mean that anyone should be free to do what they want without consequences.
    Want to convert from Christianity to Buddhism? Go ahead, but your religious parents might be upset.
    fine, your state has the right to lock you up? not fine
    Want to wear a pirate shirt? Go ahead, but...
    people might laugh at you? fine, people have the right to threaten to beat you up? not okay.

    Or do you feel that having someone attempt to break into my house shouting that they're kill my partner, followed by a brick through my car windscreen at 3am because we called the police is justified because we live together, and because we choose not to lie when asked if we are gay?

    perhaps you feel that a girl who wears skimpy clothing and carries condoms is obviously promiscuous and so has no right to cry rape?
    I understand that in an ideal world, you shouldn't have a problem. But the fact is that life ain't fair and you can't control other people's beliefs, so why make decisions that end up hurting you?

    Anyone have any thoughts on the above? Hope I made sense.

    Yes, I agree you were only talking about wearing a frilly shirt, but the very same apologist attitude was what allowed the National Socialist Party's rise to power
    in Germany (or allowed the introduction of Night Watch in Babylon 5).

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Carriage Return, you are way off base here. You've misinterpreted my argument completely, which may be because I wasn't clear, and you've changed it to one that I don't want associated with me! I hope I can clear this up for you.
    Your argument here seems to be if you can hide your difference you should.

    illiterate people should pretend they can read.
    Canadians should all speak American.
    Lesbians should sleep with men.
    Gay portillitions should get married before moving to the cabinet
    fat people shouldn't wear swim suits in public
    Black people should not be seen in the better parts of town

    That's not what I was suggesting at all. My argument has nothing to with what anyone should or shouldn't do, nor does it concern justifying or explaining any racist, sexist, homophobic (etc.) beliefs.

    My question already assumes that people will have different morals and beliefs, and whether they are right or wrong is besides the point.

    I am trying to figure out what motivates people to make decisions about their behaviour when they are likely to personally suffer negative consequences.

    In the case of MaLkAv, I'm trying to understand what motivates him to do a particular thing. Let's go back to the shirt example. He feels one way about wearing the shirt, but he knows that there are people who feel another way. He has 2 choices: wear the shirt and deal with the consequences (being laughed at), or not wear the shirt, and deal with those consequences (not being able to wear what he wants to). I hope you can see that when I rephrase my question, right and wrong is irrelavant.

    Going back to the depression example...yes, discrimination towards me of any sort due to my mental illness is, in my opinion immoral, unjust, wrong, evil, and illegal. The problem is that there are people out there who have some screwed up notions about the mentally ill...anything from believing that depressives are just looking for attention to believing that the mentally ill should be put into nazi death camps. Whether I tell people about my depression has nothing to do with me wanting to hide it. It has everything to do with what is best for me. I know that if I talked about it at work, people would immediately start to gossip, and some co-workers might lose respect for me. It shouldn't be that way, but it is. I chose not to say anything at work simply because it would make my life difficult, and I don't want that to happen.

    As for some of the examples you gave, they are extremely disturbing examples of what you thought my argument was. Again, I want to assure you that I don't agree with them, I don't think people are "asking for it", and I was in no way attempting to justify beliefs like that or any behaviour associated with them.
    people might laugh at you? fine, people have the right to threaten to beat you up? not okay.

    Of course I'm not suggesting it's fine. It's not. I'm wondering why one would do something that might elicit a violent response when they don't have to. I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't wear a sweater that, for whatever reason, made people want to beat me up, no matter how much I liked the it.
    Or do you feel that having someone attempt to break into my house shouting that they're kill my partner, followed by a brick through my car windscreen at 3am because we called the police is justified because we live together, and because we choose not to lie when asked if we are gay?

    What those people did can't be justified. There is no excuse. But this brings me to the question I've been asking, and I would like to hear your opinion. In hindsight, would you try to keep your sexual orientation a secret from these creeps? Or is is more important to you to be honest about it? I don't know what I would do if it were me...you don't have very nice options.
    perhaps you feel that a girl who wears skimpy clothing and carries condoms is obviously promiscuous and so has no right to cry rape?

    Again, there is no excuse to justify rape, and I've not ever suggested that there is.
    Yes, I agree you were only talking about wearing a frilly shirt, but the very same apologist attitude was what allowed the National Socialist Party's rise to power
    in Germany (or allowed the introduction of Night Watch in Babylon 5).

    This is the most offensive thing anyone has ever said to me. Next time I'm curious about human behaviour, I think I'll keep my mouth shut. After all, the consequence is being labeled a Nazi.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    can i just say here here burnout girl! what a brilliant post! you are like a droplet of sense in an ocean of confusion!!! i'm feeling all poetic all of a sudden!

    i'm not denying that women are stupid; God made them to match the men.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Woah, carriage return, I think you have a teensy bit of a persecution complex here don't you?

    I think understood what you were saying Burnout & I think you've made an excellent point. MalKav shouldn't really dress like a prat & not expect to be treated like one. Obviously you weren't advocating that people should expect to be beaten up for any reason, but If I walked down the road woth my bra on the outside of my t-shirt & my hair died bright green, I would at least expect people to notice.

    I think that it was totally unfounded & unreasonable for CR to compare you with Nazis, I didn't get that from your post so don't worry.

    I was going to say a few other things, but I don't want to get caught up in an arguement <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/smile.gif"&gt;

    j9

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by j9j9:
    Woah, carriage return, I think you have a teensy bit of a persecution complex here don't you?
    yes that was a bit of a rant. It could have been better worded

    I think that it was totally unfounded & unreasonable for CR to compare you with Nazis
    I'm very sorry if that is how it was read, it was most definately not what I meant.
    I compared her to the "silent majority" in Germany in the 30s - these were not evil people, it was their "they probably deserve it" attitude that allowed that Nazis to do what they did.

    As for the "choose to conform" point - I find that very frightening especially as it is so persuasive. I spent 8 years of my life confrorming and I would have probably given in to the compulsion to suicide had not a freak occurance allowed my to see through the conditioning I had inflicted upon myself. Last year my cousin did.
    Obviously you weren't advocating that people should expect to be beaten up for any reason, but If I walked down the road with my bra on the outside of my t-shirt & my hair died bright green, I would at least expect people to notice.

    Yes, all this when talking about a ruffled shirt is harmless. It is only the reasoning which, I feel, is very very dangerous.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Burnout_Girl:
    This is the most offensive thing anyone has ever said to me. Next time I'm curious about human behaviour, I think I'll keep my mouth shut. After all, the consequence is being labeled a Nazi.
    Please, I didn't. The Germans were not nazis. They were manipulated by them though.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Burnout_Girl:
    Carriage Return, you are way off base here. You've misinterpreted my argument completely, which may be because I wasn't clear, and you've changed it to one that I don't want associated with me!
    I'm sorry, I took a question and assumed it was rhetorical. That was careless.

    I then extended this argument to show how it could be used, giving examples that I expect everyone to disagree with (but have been used in the past). This was very poor rhetorical style. Imagine an "of course not" after each question

    I interpreted your "then ..." to mean that you `approved' of everything that had been said to MaLkAv. This was unwarranted, but was probably what upset me the most.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Burnout_Girl:
    I am trying to figure out what motivates people to make decisions about their behaviour when they are likely to personally suffer negative consequences.
    I guess the answer is that we weigh up the situation and go with that which is most favourable to us.

    I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't wear a sweater that, for whatever reason, made people want to beat me up, no matter how much I liked it.
    Okay, you work. There are men who claim theat women working steals jobs from men, and a very few nutters do get violent about it. Are you going to stop working because it makes these nutters want to beat you up? I assume your answer is no, but can you explain why? (the answer to your income is that you should live with your family until you marry someone who will provide for you)

    Coming back to the ruffled shirt, my guess is that it makes him feel good about himself, and he doesn't expect it to make anyone feel badly about him, so he wears it.

    Perhaps you could answer this one -
    why do women wear sexy clothes when it might lead to them being raped?

    [attempt to break into my house]
    What those people did can't be justified. There is no excuse.
    one of the police offers said something like "well, if you're going to live together this is what is going to happen"

    But this brings me to the question I've been asking, and I would like to hear your opinion. In hindsight, would you try to keep your sexual orientation a secret from these creeps? Or is is more important to you to be honest about it?
    in hindsight I'd think twice about buying this house, but I'd not lie to a direct question (in this case asked by a 10 year old girl, who then told...). I'll evade and misdirect (do I look gay? do you really think I've got depression? what does your mum say about Santa?) but when asked directly I'll tell the truth as I understand it.


  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I realize the topic had died, but I haven't been around for a few weeks and just wanted to respond. (Actually, I did respond, but the post never showed up. Strange)

    Carriage Return, thanks for re-reading and reconsidering my post. All I wanted to do was have an intelligent debate and discussion. After a false start, we seem to be getting there.

    Just wanted to respond to a couple of points rather than get into the whole debate again.

    I'm certainly not arguing for conformity. What a boring world we would live in if we all tried to be the same! I just know that I personally have certain limits to what I will do outside of societal norms, but they vary.

    I tend to dress fairly conservatively because I am uncomfortable with people judging what I wear. I keep it safe, simple and within my comfort level. However, each year Toronto host the world's second largest Gay Pride festival which I always attend, and always attend it topless. In that sitaution, my comfort and safety levels are totally different.

    I also agree that forced conformity can be horribly damaging, and you gave good examples of what happened to your cousin and the hell gay men and women often go through trying to hide their sexuality.

    I also want to say that I do recognize the danger of the argument. I was think about clothes, but things certainly change when we talk about race or gender.But again, I don't approve of the reactions, only wanted to point out that they can often be expected.

    Anyway, I'm glad the air is cleared. Seems like we're on the same side after all.

    I'm going to post something about sexual orientation in a minute. Would love your input on that CR.

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