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Racist Children?

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
Ok so today at work i was called a "fucker" by a 7 year old who claims he hates black people, and if i told his mother she wouldn't believe a word because i'm "brown". Im completely dumbfounded as to what makes a child think in this way. The boy's sister is completely different and the loveliest girl in the world, which leads me to believe that it's not coming from their parents, and that he's come to this conclusion by himself. Do you think that children can be racist of their own accord or that they're merely repeating what they've heard?
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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well my friend's little boy is half cast, half black and half white and already at nursery they are picking on him because he's brown.
    I think kids will pick on anything that looks different and is not the norm but obviously parents can be very influential on top of that.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    .
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If it's not coming from the parents it must be coming from sdomewhere else. Personally i wouldn't rule out the parents entirely though. Although mine never swore they were and are racist. My brother holds some moderate racist views, but myself and my sister are entirely liberal and haven't a racist bone in our bodies.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Bit off the subject but there was a kid in my class who was actively racist but his parent's weren't. He told me his grandad was though and used to tell him all sorts of shit which the kid in my class obviously took on board.

    Near the end of school he grew up though and the lad he spent most of his time with in the final years was black.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    *subzero* wrote:
    Ok so today at work i was called a "fucker" by a 7 year old who claims he hates black people, and if i told his mother she wouldn't believe a word because i'm "brown". Im completely dumbfounded as to what makes a child think in this way. The boy's sister is completely different and the loveliest girl in the world, which leads me to believe that it's not coming from their parents, and that he's come to this conclusion by himself. Do you think that children can be racist of their own accord or that they're merely repeating what they've heard?
    Of course they can, they here older people weather parents, older brother/friends, say I hate blacks and they think there 'cool' by hating blacks also.

    He hasn't got a skinhead and cherry red Dr Martins yet has he? :D J/K
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    While kids are naturally curious, I don't think they'd call anyone of a different colour 'fucker' if they hadn't heard it somewhere before. It might be another member of the family (like a grandparent as someone pointed out) or schoolmates or someone else. Someone different will get their attention and they may make fun of it (as they do with someone who's nose is too large or has ginger hair), but from there to deliberately yelling at someone 'fucker' because of this is definitely a modelled behaviour. Bottom line is I don't think children are exhibit those behaviours of their own accord.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    bluewisdom wrote:
    Bottom line is I don't think children are exhibit those behaviours of their own accord.
    I agree. Race is essentially a social construct anyway. It doesn't exist in nature, so it has to be based on what a child has learned socially, be it through parents, grandparents, friends, TV, whatever.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I agree. Race is essentially a social construct anyway. It doesn't exist in nature, so it has to be based on what a child has learned socially, be it through parents, grandparents, friends, TV, whatever.

    no i completely disagree, children assess social situations and quickly make up their minds about who'se 'useful': what do they stand to gain by including this person. if a child isn't useful or they don't appear to cut it (in come the race thing) in a white world, then that person will bepicked on or worse ignored - black or white.

    the 7yr old in question has decided (wrongly) that all blacks are the same: a serious fuck up in his personal and social growth.

    a better child would include those who were likely to make him look good, and exclude any threats to him - not that he'll be ranking highly in his peer group with an attitude like that.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    VinylVicky wrote:
    I think kids will pick on anything that looks different.

    Intrresting. At the nursery I do a work placement at for 2 days a week, we've never had this problem - there's a boy who is half Enghlish & half Indian (his skin is slightly dark) and there are two children who have really dark skin.
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Stalin's Organist Posts: 13,327
    I wouldn't rule the parents out, or other people the kid associates with - firends can be a big influence. Other relatives, etc.

    What a cunt though. The fact he claims the mtoher won't care because you are "brown" suggest parents might be an influence though.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    no i completely disagree, children assess social situations and quickly make up their minds about who'se 'useful': what do they stand to gain by including this person. if a child isn't useful or they don't appear to cut it (in come the race thing) in a white world, then that person will bepicked on or worse ignored - black or white.

    the 7yr old in question has decided (wrongly) that all blacks are the same: a serious fuck up in his personal and social growth.

    a better child would include those who were likely to make him look good, and exclude any threats to him - not that he'll be ranking highly in his peer group with an attitude like that.
    That's on an individual level though. I agree with what you've said, that children will exclude certain individuals, and then use excuses such as hair colour, skin colour, or the fact that they wear glasses. But they will only exclude all people of a particular colour because of social reasons. How many times have you seen kids exclude someone because they wear glasses, but then be happy to include another child who wears glasses? That's not the same as ill feelings towards every person of a particular social 'group' which is not innate in any children, in my opinion. I think children will always notice differences such as a child being black, their reaction to it will be based on the reactions of those around them (thier parents, or even the other child when they ask them about it). And of course, they will always pick out any difference from the 'norm' when they're picking on that person, but that doesn't mean they're racist. Calling someone a fat bastard in a fight, then going to sit down for a drink with your lardy-arsed mates isn't uncommon among adults. Actual prejudice against fat people generally is (though that seems to be increasing).
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Maybe it's the difference between little boys and little girls? Or the way in which we express views?

    I mean I know far more racist men than women, but it could be because men are more vocal about their racism and women aren't.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    *subzero* wrote:
    Ok so today at work i was called a "fucker" by a 7 year old who claims he hates black people, and if i told his mother she wouldn't believe a word because i'm "brown". Im completely dumbfounded as to what makes a child think in this way. The boy's sister is completely different and the loveliest girl in the world, which leads me to believe that it's not coming from their parents, and that he's come to this conclusion by himself. Do you think that children can be racist of their own accord or that they're merely repeating what they've heard?


    Parents, Grandparents, uncles, aunts, friends, TV, school friends

    Could be anything
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Young kids dont even have an aversion to shit, so they are not going to be racist, these things are put into kids heads, they arent there to start with.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Maybe it's the difference between little boys and little girls? Or the way in which we express views?

    I mean I know far more racist men than women, but it could be because men are more vocal about their racism and women aren't.

    Most of the racist women I've met fit that pattern. Their racism seems to be more about social preferences or attraction, rather than hatred or aggression, so it is more understated and less overt. Its usually only what they don't say that could give you a clue that they hold racist views, and probably you'll never realise at all.

    For instance, a girlfriend of mine (who was Jewish) whom I'd been in a relationship with for about 6 months never showed any sign of prejudice, against anyone (although she did have some fairly reactionary views about crime). One day she made a pretty innocuous comment (which I can't remember) about something to do with race, which I laughed at as I thought she was being ironic. However I then asked her jokingly what she considered to be the hierachy of races: she proceeded, in full seriousness, to recount an ordered list of the hierachy of races, which was suprisingly detailed. I'm "white" (I prefer the term Northern European) by the way, which was top of her list. I was totally shocked and asked her if she was taking the piss, and she argued back very defensively implying that I was being stupid and disingenuous as "everyone knows what the ranking is" really, its just taboo. Needless to say she became an ex-girlfriend shortly afterwards. The thing that was so suprising was that I had introduced her to a good number of my friends, most of whom are from ethnic minorities but a few of whom are white, and she treated them all perfectly equally and displayed no bias.

    For me the whole incident was shocking, and confirmed my suspicion that many, even most people are quietly consciously racist or have racist tendencies, but don't speak their views because we live in a liberal climate where you can't really get away with it. But I definately think this is more common with girls/women, in my experience (there have been others who have revealed racism when I've probed). Whereas men are generally unafraid or stupid/tactless enough to reveal their racism quite quickly.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I agree. Race is essentially a social construct anyway. It doesn't exist in nature, so it has to be based on what a child has learned socially, be it through parents, grandparents, friends, TV, whatever.

    Oh dear.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    carlito wrote:
    Most of the racist women I've met fit that pattern. Their racism seems to be more about social preferences or attraction, rather than hatred or aggression, so it is more understated and less overt. Its usually only what they don't say that could give you a clue that they hold racist views, and probably you'll never realise at all.

    For instance, a girlfriend of mine (who was Jewish) whom I'd been in a relationship with for about 6 months never showed any sign of prejudice, against anyone (although she did have some fairly reactionary views about crime). One day she made a pretty innocuous comment (which I can't remember) about something to do with race, which I laughed at as I thought she was being ironic. However I then asked her jokingly what she considered to be the hierachy of races: she proceeded, in full seriousness, to recount an ordered list of the hierachy of races, which was suprisingly detailed. I'm "white" (I prefer the term Northern European) by the way, which was top of her list. I was totally shocked and asked her if she was taking the piss, and she argued back very defensively implying that I was being stupid and disingenuous as "everyone knows what the ranking is" really, its just taboo. Needless to say she became an ex-girlfriend shortly afterwards. The thing that was so suprising was that I had introduced her to a good number of my friends, most of whom are from ethnic minorities but a few of whom are white, and she treated them all perfectly equally and displayed no bias.

    For me the whole incident was shocking, and confirmed my suspicion that many, even most people are quietly consciously racist or have racist tendencies, but don't speak their views because we live in a liberal climate where you can't really get away with it. But I definately think this is more common with girls/women, in my experience (there have been others who have revealed racism when I've probed). Whereas men are generally unafraid or stupid/tactless enough to reveal their racism quite quickly.

    Well, there has been some 'research' into this but I don't know how accurate it is because it is a taboo subject.

    My view is that regardless of whether there is a difference in intellect, we are all still from the same human stock and so should be treated equally. We should not treat women different to men because they are weaker, for instance. And anyway, I have my doubts about 'Whites' being at the top of the tree ... the Chinese, for instance, were far more advanced than Europe for thousands of years and it's only due to their internal history that they they became bogged down somewhat.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Spliffie wrote:
    Oh dear.
    Oh dear what?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teagan wrote:
    Well, there has been some 'research' into this but I don't know how accurate it is because it is a taboo subject.

    My view is that regardless of whether there is a difference in intellect, we are all still from the same human stock and so should be treated equally. We should not treat women different to men because they are weaker, for instance. And anyway, I have my doubts about 'Whites' being at the top of the tree ... the Chinese, for instance, were far more advanced than Europe for thousands of years and it's only due to their internal history that they they became bogged down somewhat.

    Well yes there has been some dubious research into the subject (see for instance The Bell Curve) which has been mainly dismissed by scientists, although you are right there hasn't been much scrutiny because its a taboo subject.

    However, that wasn't my point. I wasn't saying that there is any such "hierachy of races," in fact I am vehemently opposed to that view. Also my (ex) girlfriends list wasn't even necessarily based on intellect (although that seemed to be a factor), it was based on percieved attractiveness and more general aptitude and "civility." Although I didn't enquire too fully into the reasons as I was in a state of shock.

    What I was saying was that racist attitudes are harder detect in women because they are less willing to reveal it explicitly.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Oh dear what?

    Race is a taxonomic term for variants of the species which have come about through isolation in a particular environment and the operation of natural selection. It's a word representing a natural reality with fuck all to do with culture or socialisation - you do not see a Dachshund as being a Poodle, regardless of your socialisation.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But "race" also has different meanings in differing social and cultural contexts.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teagan wrote:
    Well, there has been some 'research' into this but I don't know how accurate it is because it is a taboo subject.

    My view is that regardless of whether there is a difference in intellect, we are all still from the same human stock and so should be treated equally. We should not treat women different to men because they are weaker, for instance. And anyway, I have my doubts about 'Whites' being at the top of the tree ... the Chinese, for instance, were far more advanced than Europe for thousands of years and it's only due to their internal history that they they became bogged down somewhat.

    If difference in intellect can be scientifically verified, separatism becomes vindicated. Only emotion could dictate otherwise.

    Do you have any sources about the Chinese being more advanced than Europe for thousands of years? Undoubtedly Chinese civilisation was highly advanced, but there is evidence suggesting considerable ancient European influence in Oriental culture.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    But "race" also has different meanings in differing social and cultural contexts.

    And that's relevent, how exactly?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Spliffie wrote:
    And that's relevent, how exactly?

    Errr...race...social construct...y'know, the topic under discussion?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Spliffie wrote:
    If difference in intellect can be scientifically verified, separatism becomes vindicated. Only emotion could dictate otherwise.

    Does it become vindicated? Do we hold Olympics games for different races because some races have definite physical advantages over others? I don't believe separatism for intellect would be vindicated.
    Spliffie wrote:
    Do you have any sources about the Chinese being more advanced than Europe for thousands of years? Undoubtedly Chinese civilisation was highly advanced, but there is evidence suggesting considerable ancient European influence in Oriental culture.

    There are loads of resources. In particular, the nature of their advanced civilisation allowed them to be the inventors of early seismological detectors, matches, paper, dry docks, sliding calipers, the double-action piston pump, cast iron, the iron plough, the multi-tube seed drill, the wheelbarrow, the suspension bridge, the parachute, natural gas as fuel, the magnetic compass, the relief map, the propeller, the crossbow, gunpowder and printing.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    Errr...race...social construct...y'know, the topic under discussion?

    Ok, so tell me what these "differing contexts are" and how they relate to my statement of fact that race is a biological reality? You're throwing single-sentence nonsense around without expanding what you mean, as usual.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Spliffie wrote:
    my statement of fact that race is a biological reality?

    Could you offer some proof for that statement of facts ?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teagan wrote:
    Does it become vindicated? Do we hold Olympics games for different races because some races have definite physical advantages over others? I don't believe separatism for intellect would be vindicated.

    Errr...if one race is intellectually superior the other as a whole, it stands to reason the higher race is best off avoiding intermixture...not unless you consider a decline in intelligence, probable collapse of civilisation and evolutionary regression as valuable.
    There are loads of resources. In particular, the nature of their advanced civilisation allowed them to be the inventors of early seismological detectors, matches, paper, dry docks, sliding calipers, the double-action piston pump, cast iron, the iron plough, the multi-tube seed drill, the wheelbarrow, the suspension bridge, the parachute, natural gas as fuel, the magnetic compass, the relief map, the propeller, the crossbow, gunpowder and printing.

    Those investions don't show a superior civilisation spanning thousands of years.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Spliffie wrote:
    Ok, so tell me what these "differing contexts are" and how they relate to my statement of fact that race is a biological reality? You're throwing single-sentence nonsense around without expanding what you mean, as usual.

    Look - I was pointing out that the meaning that we attach to race is a social construct. Debate that if you want, I don't really give a toss.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Spliffie wrote:
    Errr...if one race is intellectually superior the other as a whole, it stands to reason the higher race is best off avoiding intermixture...not unless you consider a decline in intelligence, probable collapse of civilisation and evolutionary regression as valuable.

    So they had the means to do accurate testing of intellect?
    Spliffie wrote:
    hose investions don't show a superior civilisation spanning thousands of years.

    Ok - two thousand years.
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