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Time to make trade unions financially responsible for their actions?

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yes, that's right. Workers and bosses have the same interests. Workers want better conditions and wages, bosses want more profits. These interests are in common because....errrr...ummmm...hmmmm...help me out here please...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm guessing your reply will be something about employees needing jobs and profits making jobs... :rolleyes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    Yes, that's right. Workers and bosses have the same interests. Workers want better conditions and wages, bosses want more profits. These interests are in common because....errrr...ummmm...hmmmm...help me out here please...

    I've already given you an example above, about 'workers' and 'bosses' having the same locational interests. That doesn't mean that within an individual company that the owner and the workers have the same interests. Nor does it mean all workers have the same interests - a company which, for example, decides to get rid of it employees who can't use PCs, but to stop the rest decamping gives them a payrise will find that the interests of the workers sharply divide.

    In many industries its in the interests of the bosses to keep the staff well apyed and motivated because a) they do better work and b) they're not poached by a rival firm.

    Loads and loads of more examples, but frankly as you seem stuck in a nineteenth century view of capital and labour I can't be arsed.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    NQA wrote:
    a) they do better work

    Do they though? Productivity in the UK is one of the worst in Europe.
    NQA wrote:
    b) they're not poached by a rival firm.

    Is there the competition there among companies? Many workers feel trapped in their job and that there aren't any better alternatives.

    I do agree that not all workers share the same interests but in comparison to their bosses, they have a lot more in common with each other.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    Workers want better conditions and wages, bosses want more profits.

    Aren't those two things linked?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    Workers want better conditions and wages, bosses want more profits.

    In which ways are the two mutually exclusive?

    If its so obvious that you need to resort to rather piss-poor sarcasm, it shouldn't take you long to explain it.

    I'm sure Titus Salt is all ears.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yerascrote wrote:
    Do they though? Productivity in the UK is one of the worst in Europe.

    Strictly speaking that's manufacturing productivity and since 1995 only Sweden and South Korea have had higher productivity than the US

    http://www.bls.gov/news.release/prod4.nr0.htm

    It also assumes the UK is some special case in industrial relations and only UK firms see the benefits from happier workers being more productive.

    Is there the competition there among companies? Many workers feel trapped in their job and that there aren't any better alternatives.

    yep many workers feel alienated and stuck in dead end jobs. Do they share a common interest with those who are happy in their work and able to move around?
    I do agree that not all workers share the same interests but in comparison to their bosses, they have a lot more in common with each other

    because bosses and workers in nowdays a false distinction. Apart from the fact many workers don't work in an industry where the aim is profit (about 20% for example work for the public sector for example, others in charities etc). and what common interest does a high paid lawyer (whose employed by a city law firm) really have in common with a dustman. And come to that what common interests does someone who runs a cafe near a factory (which relies on workers being paid enough that they are willing to fork out a £4 for a cooked lunch) have in common with the owners of Cargill? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargill
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aren't those two things linked?

    Yes of course. Given that profit is surplus value expropriated from workers, the only ways to increase profits are to extract more surplus value from your workers. How do you do that? Well you increase efficiency, decrease wages or increase working hours. What do you think our long hours culture is about? What do you think immigration and the expansion of the EU is about?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    NQA wrote:
    because bosses and workers in nowdays a false distinction. Apart from the fact many workers don't work in an industry where the aim is profit (about 20% for example work for the public sector for example, others in charities etc).

    ...and what do you think the purpose of the public sector is?

    NQA wrote:
    and what common interest does a high paid lawyer (whose employed by a city law firm) really have in common with a dustman.

    What function do you think the lawyer has? What is their relationship to capital? Is their function to support the interests of capital? What on earth do you think city law firms actually do?
    NQA wrote:
    And come to that what common interests does someone who runs a cafe near a factory (which relies on workers being paid enough that they are willing to fork out a £4 for a cooked lunch) have in common with the owners of Cargill? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargill

    Is this a serious question?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    What do you think immigration and the expansion of the EU is about?

    Zionism? ;)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I've posted this before, but I think it bears repeating

    http://www.ssc.wisc.edu/~wright/Foundations.pdf
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    ...and what do you think the purpose of the public sector is?

    Well it aint to make money.
    What function do you think the lawyer has? What is their relationship to capital? Is their function to support the interests of capital? What on earth do you think city law firms actually do?

    And what have any of those questions got to do with the common interests of a worker who is in a well paid job and one who isn't.
    Is this a serious question?

    More rhetorical as I know the answer.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    I've posted this before, but I think it bears repeating

    http://www.ssc.wisc.edu/~wright/Foundations.pdf

    No chance of your own views then?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    Yes of course. Given that profit is surplus value expropriated from workers, the only ways to increase profits are to extract more surplus value from your workers. How do you do that? Well you increase efficiency, decrease wages or increase working hours. What do you think our long hours culture is about? What do you think immigration and the expansion of the EU is about?

    By the same token, give your staff decent conditions and a good salary and you will attract the "best" workers...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    Given that profit is surplus value expropriated from workers, the only ways to increase profits are to extract more surplus value from your workers. How do you do that? Well you increase efficiency, decrease wages or increase working hours.

    If this is the case how do you explain companies paying above the minimum wage? Why do companies pay a penny more than they legally have to?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote:
    If this is the case how do you explain companies paying above the minimum wage? Why do companies pay a penny more than they legally have to?

    Competition and commodity.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    By the same token, give your staff decent conditions and a good salary and you will attract the "best" workers...
    For millions of unskilled positions across the country that is simply not the case. All you need is some desperado in need of work, to do a basic job in a factory line.

    In such cases, the interests of the employers and those of the employees are diametrically opposed. One wants the maximum amount of profits possible, the others want a decent wage. The end product in question is going to be the same and sell for the same amount regardless, so guess where the extra profits for the employer and the company shareholders are going to come from...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Does your boss live up to this satan image you have in your head?

    i wonder how you can stand working for such a hell fiend!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No, I have never said or suggested all bosses are the same.

    But let's not pretend the interests of bosses and employees are the same- they are not.

    And in many cases, they are diametrically opposed. In particular in cases where the job is unskilled.

    Last I looked, McDonalds employees serving burgers behind the counter weren't earning £40,000 a year.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    No, I have never said or suggested all bosses are the same.

    But let's not pretend the interests of bosses and employees are the same- they are not.

    And in many cases, they are diametrically opposed. In particular in cases where the job is unskilled.

    Last I looked, McDonalds employees serving burgers behind the counter weren't earning £40,000 a year.

    Which suggests that plenty of workers also have no common interests with MacDonalds burgers, though those who eat there may have a common interest with the bosses in MacDonalds remaining competitive
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Seeing as McDonalds is an extremely profitable company with billions of dollars in profit every year, and that their products could hardly be any worse, I can assure you that it is not in the interests of customers for McDonalds to pay shit to their employees.

    On the contrary, I should imagine customers want happy employees rather than disgruntled ones who might hate their job so much they start putting 'presents' in the food they prepare.

    Sorry. Whichever way you want to look at it, bosses' interests are seldom the same ones as employees'.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    Seeing as McDonalds is an extremely profitable company with billions of dollars in profit every year, and that their products could hardly be any worse, I can assure you that it is not in the interests of customers for McDonalds to pay shit to their employees.

    On the contrary, I should imagine customers want happy employees rather than disgruntled ones who might hate their job so much they start putting 'presents' in the food they prepare.

    Sorry. Whichever way you want to look at it, bosses' interests are seldom the same ones as employees'.

    Yes, but McDonalds getting sued by irate customers who find presents in their food isn't in the bosses interests either. Frankly whenever I go to MacDonalds I don't mind if the worker is pissed off or not - if I want nutrious food with good service I'm not going for a big mac.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yes, but McDonalds getting sued by irate customers who find presents in their food isn't in the bosses interests either. Frankly whenever I go to MacDonalds I don't mind if the worker is pissed off or not - if I want nutrious food with good service I'm not going for a big mac.

    Bit like the boss, he doesn't mind if the worker is pissed off, he just wants the biggest pay cheque he can get.
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