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The 'war on terror' is going well then

Apparently we are now the number one target for AQ and other groups, nice to see that what ever we've done since 11th of September and the 7th July is working well.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6065460.stm

Any ideas?
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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It's not really too much of a surprise, Britain has a large Muslim population and so it is relatively easy to infiltrate a community that thinks it is owed something.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    budda wrote:
    Any ideas?

    Removing the army from Iraq would be a start.
    Improving relations with the Muslim community would be another, though saying that, they have to be willing to talk also which they quite clearly are not at the moment.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote:
    It's not really too much of a surprise, Britain has a large Muslim population and so it is relatively easy to infiltrate a community that thinks it is owed something.
    That job is made a lot easier by a government that has embarked in an illegal war that has cost the lives of hundreds of thousands and that has also abandoned Britain's historic moderation and neutrality in the Middle East conflict in favour of blind support of the actions of Israel, no matter how murderous and dastardly they are.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yerascrote wrote:
    Improving relations with the Muslim community would be another

    Yeah Blair and Jack Straw are doing a great job of that recently...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yeah Blair and Jack Straw are doing a great job of that recently...

    I don't think it's got anything to do with Blair and Straw. I'm talking about grass root relations, how many people do you know have a wide range of multi ethnic friends? The ole "Oh I have a black/asian friend" is a little bit outdated, they live in their world and we live in ours. Simple as.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I must say at the moment I do not know any black people I would say I'm friends with (though I'm on friendly terms with a couple of chaps I've met through a common friend, we've just only met twice so don't know each other enough to be friends) but I have several Asian friends as well as Muslims and Arabs.

    I should say that most of the Muslims I call my friends drink like fishes and the women amongst them wear Western clothes. I cannot say I really have any friends amongst the more conservative/religious branch of Muslims, but then I could say exactly the same of conservative/religious white native Christians.

    Some people from a certain background/race/religion keep themselves to themselves, and some others, while having perhaps a majority of friends amongst their own circle, mingle with others and have friends from other backgrounds.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ban religious paraphernalia in state schools. Strictly regulate government funding of religious groups. Rigorously enforce laws on the incitement of violence. Extend security service infiltration of the Muslim community. Deport foreign born preachers of hate. Ban foreign citizens known to preach violence and hatred from visiting Britain.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    We must have been starting to calm down. I forget that it's really important to keep us nice and afraid.
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    War Of Terror tbh.

    Its going as well as an Army fighting a Guerilla war can be expected to go. Poorly.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teh_Gerbil wrote:
    War Of Terror tbh.

    Its going as well as an Army fighting a Guerilla war can be expected to go. Poorly.


    actually if it's a war on good english, it's very well won with terms like 'extraordinary rendition' and 'war on terror'

    it's also a very good war on people's basic freedoms


    both 'sides' like it at the moment, the actual violent people get willing recruits, and the governments get extra powers, the only people who get hurt are those in the middle like us, and those poor people in Iraq - yes most people in america honestly believe saddam hussein was partially behind 9-11


    frankly i just wish the idiots who run the show and who listen to both sides would kill eachother, then we'd be alright for a while
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    That job is made a lot easier by a government that has embarked in an illegal war

    Of everybody I have spoken to regarding the war I cannot recall anybody more supportive of it than a devoutly Muslim Iraqi at my old school who came to Britain as a refugee. I haven't spoken to him since he left for uni so I don't know if he has changed his mind but he claimed that most Iraqis in Britain supported the war.
    Aladdin wrote:
    abandoned Britain's historic moderation and neutrality in the Middle East conflict in favour of blind support of the actions of Israel, no matter how murderous and dastardly they are.

    That isn't true. At the UN Britain has sometimes sided with the EU against Israel. And by being part of the EU which has even funded terrorism against Israel I don't think Britain is a particularly strong supporter of Israel.

    But, as Liam Fox told Conservative Friends of Israel -
    The United Kingdom will always be a supporter of Israel. It is our friend and it is our ally. It is of enormous importance to regional security and regional prosperity. I am sad that our current government doesn’t put it high enough up the agenda but I can assure you that when the Conservatives return to office we shall remember who our friends are.
    (speech to CFI reception, 3 November 2005)

    Anyway Israel is an obsession of the European left more than anything. Kashmir and US troops in Saudi Arabia are [generally] bigger gripes for Muslims.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Of everybody I have spoken to regarding the war I cannot recall anybody more supportive of it than a devoutly Muslim Iraqi at my old school who came to Britain as a refugee. I haven't spoken to him since he left for uni so I don't know if he has changed his mind but he claimed that most Iraqis in Britain supported the war.
    Most people in Britain are against the war. I don't know if any polls have been carried out amongst Muslims but I'm willing to bet the support for the war amongst them is at the very very most, 15%.


    That isn't true. At the UN Britain has sometimes sided with the EU against Israel. And by being part of the EU which has even funded terrorism against Israel I don't think Britain is a particularly strong supporter of Israel.
    LOL. If by 'against Israel' you mean condemning murder, collective punishment and appalling abuse of an entire people, then yes, Britain is guilty as charged :rolleyes: .

    They are also 'against Palestine' incidentally, having condemned Palestinian atrocities just as often as Israeli ones.

    It's no longer balanced anyway. Since Blair came into power we have swtiched to the 'Israel can do no wrong' policy favoured by our masters in Washington DC.
    Anyway Israel is an obsession of the European left more than anything. Kashmir and US troops in Saudi Arabia are [generally] bigger gripes for Muslims.
    You think?

    You haven't spoken to many Muslims have you?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Judge's human rights concerns here
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i like muslims. muslims like me, we can be effective and no political diagnosis of difference would stand between that bond. this world will grow and be great.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    You haven't spoken to many Muslims have you?

    In the Muslim world certainly there has been traditionally little concern for the Palestinians; they're a useful tool to use against Israel but not much else. Some of the populist Islamists like Ahmadinejad seem interested in Israel - or bringing about her destruction rather, but the traditional Arab regimes have never cared particularly much. Many British Muslims being of Pakistani origin are naturally more concerned about the 'injustice' of Kashmir, indeed there are far more British Muslims from that region than there are the Palestinian territories. As for Bin Laden and al-Qaeda one of the most striking aspects has been the relatively little emphasis that Israel is given. The focus seems to be more on the 'war' against 'crusading Christians' and US influence on Saudi Arabia.

    As for British Muslims campaigning against Israel well the most active Muslim group on this front would seem to be MPACUK, and given their discredited anti-Semitic agenda it would seem that for some Muslims at least criticism of Israel is merely a cloak for anti-Semitism.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yerascrote wrote:
    Removing the army from Iraq would be a start.

    ... because AQ's first attack came after that invasion, didn't it?
    Improving relations with the Muslim community would be another

    It's not the "community" that's a problem, but extremists.

    We, in the "west" have a problem with neo-cons. In the east it is the extremists, if we really want to help then it is our own community which we need to challenge, whilst helping the Mulisms attack their and vice versa.

    This is all about control, about restricting freedom and reducing the liberal attitudes and appraches which were prevalent between the late fifties and seventies. It has nothing to do with any wars in Iraq/Afghanistan or Chechnya, those are just symptoms.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    We, in the "west" have a problem with neo-cons. In the east it is the extremists

    To equate the problem of Islamic extremism with neoconservatism is absurd. And neoconservatism is not a 'problem.' The less enlightened should read "Neoconservatism: Why We Need It" by Douglas Murray.
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    The less enlightened should read "Neoconservatism: Why We Need It" by Douglas Murray.

    :lol:

    You should read some Kim il Sung.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    because AQ's first attack came after that invasion, didn't it?

    In the UK, yes. AQ attacked America because of it's stance as the world hegemon and no one liked that. The UK's involvement in Iraq was a substantial motive for 7/7, the bombers even admited it in their video.
    It's not the "community" that's a problem, but extremists.

    We, in the "west" have a problem with neo-cons. In the east it is the extremists, if we really want to help then it is our own community which we need to challenge, whilst helping the Mulisms attack their and vice versa.

    This is all about control, about restricting freedom and reducing the liberal attitudes and appraches which were prevalent between the late fifties and seventies. It has nothing to do with any wars in Iraq/Afghanistan or Chechnya, those are just symptoms.

    Oh and neo-con foreign policy isn't about instituting their ideals on the world, in itself restricting the rights of the people. Did anyone ask the Iraqi people did they want Sadam removed, no, we just went in and did what we wanted to do.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    To equate the problem of Islamic extremism with neoconservatism is absurd. And neoconservatism is not a 'problem.'
    Let's see... destruction of the planet's resources, denial of climate change and refusal to curb emissions, a foreign policy of intervention solely to further the interests of their own nation, a shocking tendency to belligerence, contempt for international law, contempt for basic human rights, unwarranted use of force, unjustified attacks against sovereign nations, abandonment of non-proliferation treaties and start of a new nuclear arms race with Russia and others...

    If that is not the definition of a 'problem' Disillusioned, you tell me that is.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ... because AQ's first attack came after that invasion, didn't it?

    No, but their first attack on the U.K. did.

    Frankly, anyone who thinks that the slaughter of innocents in Iraq hasn't furthered and fueled the terrorist cause, is quite simply barking.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    Let's see... destruction of the planet's resources, denial of climate change and refusal to curb emissions

    :confused: There is nothing explicitly neoconservative about questioning the climate change lobby or indeed adopting a 'selfish' attitude towards the environment.
    Aladdin wrote:
    a foreign policy of intervention solely to further the interests of their own nation

    That would be a form of nationalism. Neoconservatism is about promoting free trade, opposition to communism, support for liberal democracies - hence the support for Israel and Taiwan and opposition to sponsors of terrorism.

    I saw a book by Oliver Kamm in Foyles, Anti -Totalitarianism A Left-wing Case for a Neoconservative Foreign Policy; reading Christopher Hitchens and Nick Cohen too I can't help but notice that the best arguments for hawkish neoconservatism seem to come from the left...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    :confused: There is nothing explicitly neoconservative about questioning the climate change lobby or indeed adopting a 'selfish' attitude towards the environment.
    You know perfectly well that the immense majority of global warming skeptics- practically all of them in fact- are neoconservatives and Republicans. Starting with the chimp at the top and going all the way down to neocon fruitcakes debating on internet forums.

    There might be a few people who choose to deny the overwhelming evidence of global warming who are not neocons, but they are certainly a minority in that flatearthers' fraternity.
    That would be a form of nationalism. Neoconservatism is about promoting free trade, opposition to communism, support for liberal democracies - hence the support for Israel and Taiwan and opposition to sponsors of terrorism.
    LOL. You can be so naive sometimes Disillusioned.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    You know perfectly well that the immense majority of global warming skeptics- practically all of them in fact- are neoconservatives and Republicans.

    China? India? I don't know if they can be classified as sceptics or not but there's a lot more research going on in the US regarding the climate change theory than there is in China or India. China and India haven't done much about 'global warming' - in the US, California seems to be with the Europeans on climate change...
    Aladdin wrote:
    LOL. You can be so naive sometimes Disillusioned.

    In practice that might not always be the case but they are the basic principles.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    China? India? I don't know if they can be classified as sceptics or not but there's a lot more research going on in the US regarding the climate change theory than there is in China or India. China and India haven't done much about 'global warming' - in the US, California seems to be with the Europeans on climate change...
    At least you don't hear the head of State of those other countries saying, on an almost weekly basis, that there is no such thing as man-made climate change.

    No doubt a few other countries also have little respect for the environment... but at least they keep quiet about their selfishness rather than actually telling the world there's no such thing as global warming.

    In practice that might not always be the case but they are the basic principles.
    I'd rather judge them by their actions. It has always been a US government policy, specially when Republicans/neocons have been in power, to destablise or even attack countries with a geopolitical interest to the US.

    It doesn't get much more neocon than the PNAC. And have you had a look at what they have to say and what they think the US should do to 'protect its interests'?

    It's as disturbing a read as you'll ever find.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    To equate the problem of Islamic extremism with neoconservatism is absurd. And neoconservatism is not a 'problem.' The less enlightened should read "Neoconservatism: Why We Need It" by Douglas Murray.

    Comedy genius! :D
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    To equate the problem of Islamic extremism with neoconservatism is absurd.

    Yes, you are right. I should have linked it to the Christian Right.
    support for liberal democracies - hence the support for Israel and Taiwan

    I'd hardly define Israel as a "liberal" democracy.
    and opposition to sponsors of terrorism.

    Such as the US?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yerascrote wrote:
    AQ attacked America because of it's stance as the world hegemon

    No it didn't. It's because it is a symbol of everything which AQ hate.
    The UK's involvement in Iraq was a substantial motive for 7/7, the bombers even admited it in their video.

    Do you really believe that? It's an excuse, the motive for the whole AQ approach has little to do with the invasions of Afhganistan or Iraq, they just try to use them as excuses for their actions or as recruitment. If it wasn't that, then it would be something else - how do you think that they recruited the WTC attackers, or those who attacked the USS Cole, or the embassies in Kenya...?
    Oh and neo-con foreign policy isn't about instituting their ideals on the world, in itself restricting the rights of the people. Did anyone ask the Iraqi people did they want Sadam removed, no, we just went in and did what we wanted to do.

    Well, in fact we did ask some - i.e. those who had already escaped - and I think that views were pretty obvious given the uprising after Gulf War 1

    Perhaps we should ask another question. Did anyone ask if they wanted Saddam in power in the first place, or to remain...?

    I do, however, agree that the neo-con/christian rights are trying to force their views on others - which is precisely what AQ are trying to achieve. Each will use whatever excuse is available.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'd hardly define Israel as a "liberal" democracy.

    You're evidently ignorant of the term.

    Wikipedia.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Do you really believe that? It's an excuse, the motive for the whole AQ approach has little to do with the invasions of Afhganistan or Iraq, they just try to use them as excuses for their actions or as recruitment. If it wasn't that, then it would be something else - how do you think that they recruited the WTC attackers, or those who attacked the USS Cole, or the embassies in Kenya...?

    I already said, because of America's position as the world hegemon which is why they hate everything we stand for. Didn't know you were that naive, although other factors must be considered the war in Iraq and more importantly our involvment has had a massive influence on 7/7 and why we're seen as the number one target now.

    Perhaps we should ask another question. Did anyone ask if they wanted Saddam in power in the first place, or to remain...?

    Two wrongs don't make a right.
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